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#21
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new Soaring article
On May 12, 8:32*pm, John Cochrane
wrote: They did, give them credit. The IGC created the world class, in response to this sentiment. It was exactly your "sunfish" class. And pilots around the world resoundly rejected it. They voted with their wallets, and 18 meter gliders, mostly with motors, are the only things selling right now. Not even standard or 15m are selling. It is a great theory. It was tried. And it failed. John Cochrane John, All that this failed experiment proved is that there isn't necessarily a market for a purpose-built one-design that turns out to be more expensive than much higher perforance ships readily available on the market. Again working the analogy, many of the successful sailing classes (Sunfish comes to mind) were built and became popular first - then someone decided to race them. Same with cars. If we set out with a mission statement where one of the primary objectives was to "contain costs", the class specifications would follow. P3 |
#22
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new Soaring article
On 5/12/2011 8:32 PM, John Cochrane wrote:
One thing that all of the various sanctioning bodies (FAI/IGC/NACs) will have to address at some point is a class that is primarily aimed at lowest possible cost. ..... They did, give them credit. The IGC created the world class, in response to this sentiment. It was exactly your "sunfish" class. And pilots around the world resoundly rejected it. They voted with their wallets,... No. They voted for better performance at equal cost (OK, the equal cost means used gliders) and good taste. Tony |
#23
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new Soaring article
On May 13, 10:15*am, Alpha Eight wrote:
Have we lost some of the beauty of flying in which ones understanding of nature not technology makes the glider go fast and far? The march of technology is undeniable and unstoppable but travels with some cost as well as bestowing great benefit. A8 As someone who's joined the sport in the last 5 years and who started flying competitively, I think the answer to your question is No. First, most of the technology out there now (as well as many of the items John talks about) are intended to help the pilot _understand_ the natural forces and maximize their use. As long as we fly un- powered aircraft, we're dependent upon Nature and therefore must be in tune with it. Let me put it another way: Do we begrudge a farmer who uses a tractor to plant and harvest his crops? Is he less of a farmer than someone who does everything by hand? He still must understanding planting and growing and harvesting... Also, I'd like to point out the fact that technology means something different to folks my age or older (and I'm "only" 33), when compared to the younger set. 21 year-olds in the USA are old enough to drink, vote, and fight in wars... AND THEY DON'T KNOW A WORLD WITHOUT THE INTERNET. The world-wide web became popular before they were in _kindergarten_. The first computer operating system they probably worked with was Windows 98. Not only does this younger group not know what a typewriter is, they vaulted past monochrome monitors, dot- matrix printers, DOS, floppy-disks of all kinds, pre-USB connectors and their sometimes-byzantine drivers, etc. Technology has come a long, long way in a very short time. It is hard on those of us who lived through it; but easy on those who came along afterwards. Ignore the value-judgement of whether social & technological trends are "good" or "bad" for a moment, and take note of how innately comfortable they are with technology, and what an everyday component of their lives its become. New technological developments (in or out of the cockpit) will not be as much of a shock to them as it is to most of us. It will also be less-distracting to them, and they will be able to better-integrate avionics into their training because of their familiarity with technology. Note that I'm not predicting the kids of tomorrow will be super- smart. Just as most people today don't know how their car engine works or how their electric appliances work around the house, the kids of tomorrow may not understand how their fancy tech works down at the microchip level. The point is that technology will be at the point where they won't *have* to - it just works. The good news is that these same children of tomorrow will still have to understand what the technology is trying to do (like detect a thermal); and that means they'll still have to understand Nature and her fickle ways. It is up to us, their fellow humans, to show them that this knowledge is beautiful and valuable. --Noel P.S. I also don't like the costs of top-end competitive flying. But you don't try to win a Formula 1 competition in a street car (even a high-end street car). The "average joe" who wants that sort of experience can do so relatively inexpensively through things like the SCCA Road-racing or Autocross (Solo 2) programs. NASCAR fans can participate in their local short-track racing for a fraction of the cost of a Winston/Nextel cup car. And in the soaring world we have the Sports/Club class - as well as the OLC - to fulfill the lower- budget area. I find it funny how my pilot friends complain about their particular sailplane not being competitive and wanting the class rules to change; whereas my race-car driving friends simply buy a different car. :-) |
#24
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new Soaring article
Noel, you can't be the judge. You don't know what beauty was given up;
it is an experiential level that you will never be able to know. You are correct, of course, that the technology of today helps understand the natural forces better and we wouldn't give them up, but SOMETHING at the experiential level always disappears with new advancements in any endeavour. Only those who operated at length in the old way know what that is, but it is an aesthetic sense that comes from using the old system well. At 02:48 15 May 2011, noel.wade wrote: On May 13, 10:15=A0am, Alpha Eight wrote: Have we lost some of the beauty of flying in which ones understanding of nature not technology makes the glider go fast and far? The march of technology is undeniable and unstoppable but travels with some cost as well as bestowing great benefit. A8 As someone who's joined the sport in the last 5 years and who started flying competitively, I think the answer to your question is No. First, most of the technology out there now (as well as many of the items John talks about) are intended to help the pilot _understand_ the natural forces and maximize their use. As long as we fly un- powered aircraft, we're dependent upon Nature and therefore must be in tune with it. Let me put it another way: Do we begrudge a farmer who uses a tractor to plant and harvest his crops? Is he less of a farmer than someone who does everything by hand? He still must understanding planting and growing and harvesting... Also, I'd like to point out the fact that technology means something different to folks my age or older (and I'm "only" 33), when compared to the younger set. 21 year-olds in the USA are old enough to drink, vote, and fight in wars... AND THEY DON'T KNOW A WORLD WITHOUT THE INTERNET. The world-wide web became popular before they were in _kindergarten_. The first computer operating system they probably worked with was Windows 98. Not only does this younger group not know what a typewriter is, they vaulted past monochrome monitors, dot- matrix printers, DOS, floppy-disks of all kinds, pre-USB connectors and their sometimes-byzantine drivers, etc. Technology has come a long, long way in a very short time. It is hard on those of us who lived through it; but easy on those who came along afterwards. Ignore the value-judgement of whether social & technological trends are "good" or "bad" for a moment, and take note of how innately comfortable they are with technology, and what an everyday component of their lives its become. New technological developments (in or out of the cockpit) will not be as much of a shock to them as it is to most of us. It will also be less-distracting to them, and they will be able to better-integrate avionics into their training because of their familiarity with technology. Note that I'm not predicting the kids of tomorrow will be super- smart. Just as most people today don't know how their car engine works or how their electric appliances work around the house, the kids of tomorrow may not understand how their fancy tech works down at the microchip level. The point is that technology will be at the point where they won't *have* to - it just works. The good news is that these same children of tomorrow will still have to understand what the technology is trying to do (like detect a thermal); and that means they'll still have to understand Nature and her fickle ways. It is up to us, their fellow humans, to show them that this knowledge is beautiful and valuable. --Noel P.S. I also don't like the costs of top-end competitive flying. But you don't try to win a Formula 1 competition in a street car (even a high-end street car). The "average joe" who wants that sort of experience can do so relatively inexpensively through things like the SCCA Road-racing or Autocross (Solo 2) programs. NASCAR fans can participate in their local short-track racing for a fraction of the cost of a Winston/Nextel cup car. And in the soaring world we have the Sports/Club class - as well as the OLC - to fulfill the lower- budget area. I find it funny how my pilot friends complain about their particular sailplane not being competitive and wanting the class rules to change; whereas my race-car driving friends simply buy a different car. :-) |
#25
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Nyal -
Who are YOU to judge what I can and cannot experience, and what beauty I can or cannot appreciate? Do you have a private window into my soul or my brain? I reject your notion that I am unable to appreciate things simply because I am of a different age or did not experience things the same way you did. --Noel |
#26
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new Soaring article
I'm sorry you have taken offense. My comment was not an attack on you; it
was a comment about everyone's experience. George Moffat lamented the passing of those days when navigational skills without use of GPS were as important to winning races as the weather judgment skills. Until you or I become as fluent as he was using that system we cannot appreciate the subtleties and enjoyment of them that he gave up by accepting GPS. You CAN experience that, of course, if you take the time to do all the flying he did using only the equipment he used. Until you do that you cannot say he has lost nothing because you don't know what it was. Possibly George himself could not articulate all of it. Best, Nyal At 04:08 15 May 2011, noel.wade wrote: Nyal - Who are YOU to judge what I can and cannot experience, and what beauty I can or cannot appreciate? Do you have a private window into my soul or my brain? I reject your notion that I am unable to appreciate things simply because I am of a different age or did not experience things the same way you did. --Noel |
#27
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new Soaring article
At 12:27 15 May 2011, Nyal Williams wrote:
I'm sorry you have taken offense. My comment was not an attack on you; i was a comment about everyone's experience. George Moffat lamented th passing of those days when navigational skills without use of GPS were a important to winning races as the weather judgment skills. Until you or become as fluent as he was using that system we cannot appreciate th subtleties and enjoyment of them that he gave up by accepting GPS. The rules define the nature of the competition. Navigation used to be an important, nay vital, part of racing sailplanes. It no longer matters. The equipment changes, the rules change, the competition changes. It's just different. It used to be important that you knew how to maneuver your glider to get a good photograph of the turnpoint. It wasn't as easy as you might assume. Jim Beckman |
#28
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new Soaring article
No question about that.
When a baby learns to walk it gives up its crawling skill-set for an overall advantage, but there is no question that it has lost SOMETHING for a net gain. At 22:39 15 May 2011, Jim Beckman wrote: At 12:27 15 May 2011, Nyal Williams wrote: I'm sorry you have taken offense. My comment was not an attack on you; i was a comment about everyone's experience. George Moffat lamented th passing of those days when navigational skills without use of GPS were a important to winning races as the weather judgment skills. Until you or become as fluent as he was using that system we cannot appreciate th subtleties and enjoyment of them that he gave up by accepting GPS. The rules define the nature of the competition. Navigation used to be an important, nay vital, part of racing sailplanes. It no longer matters. The equipment changes, the rules change, the competition changes. It's just different. It used to be important that you knew how to maneuver your glider to get a good photograph of the turnpoint. It wasn't as easy as you might assume. Jim Beckman |
#29
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new Soaring article
On May 12, 1:40*pm, "Lars Peder Hansen"
wrote: John, CLIP . I seem to remember reading somewhere that the US military is involved in exactly this technology, to make their light UAV's able to stay airborne much longer on a given amount of fuel/battery. CLIP Correct - this is a DARPA funded project. I do not know if it is still running but it was two years ago dbn |
#30
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new Soaring article
On May 15, 5:28*pm, Nyal Williams wrote: When a baby learns to walk it gives up its crawling skill-set for an overall advantage, but there is no question that it has lost SOMETHING for a net gain. Nyal - Its not so much that I'm offended as it is that I find your premise illogical and ridiculous. I believe you are speaking to nostalgia and your view of history through rose-colored glasses; not any real loss. To use your analogy: A Baby that learns to walk does not forget how to crawl. We can crawl even as fully-grown adults. We haven't "lost" a skill; we have simply found a better way to do things. Maybe standing on two legs alters our perception of the world and the way we interact with it; but we CAN go back and interact with it in a different manner if we want. We _choose_ not to; we don't lose the innate ability. Similarly, I can turn off my GPS and/or jump in a Schweizer and experience soaring "like the old-timers" anytime I want to. Just because I have a DG-300 and use a PDA does not mean that other soaring skills are lost, or that I cannot appreciate the simple beauties of physics, nature, weather, aerodynamics, and the 3-dimensional freedom of flight. There is no causal relationship between my ability to perceive beauty and the equipment that I use. In summary: You may long for simpler times; or for a period in which different skills were _emphasized_. There's nothing wrong with that. But confuse your desires with the skills of other pilots; and don't impugn their sense of artistry or beauty. --Noel P.S. To be clear: this is not just a personal defense; its also a reaction to the attitude that many in the Soaring community have about newer generations of pilots. Attitudes like what Nyal is displaying *do* come across as negatives and a discouragement to newer pilots. With a shrinking pilot population the last thing people should be doing is telling new folks what they _can't_ do or how they'll never be like the people that have come before them. |
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