Club Procedures for Late Day XC Flights

On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 1:33:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 1:10:39 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 11:22:53 AM UTC-4, wrote:

As Evan said we've been debating the tracking issue at the club. My personal opinion is that cellphone-based tracking is fun and games but not a solution for the late-day retrieval nor much of a safety bonus. If somebody lands where there isn't cell service, then the tracking just stops somewhere and there is no way to know whether that pilot landed or not, is safe or not.


At 7pm (or any other time), you'll see one of three things from a cell phone track, a) a track still being laid down, b) a track that stopped for some reason at near ground level, c) a track that stopped for some reason at some much higher altitude. There is useful information here in all three cases.


-Evan / T8

Case "C" ("a track that stopped for some reason at some much higher altitude") may mean: glider entered an area with no cellphone coverage even at higher altitudes. Or, maybe the glider descended too low for cellphone coverage in that area, and is currently on the ground - or working on a low save. Or, it may mean that the battery in the cellphone died. Or the app crashed (not the glider). Or the cellphone slipped under the pilot and lost GPS signal. In short, not a lot more info than having no tracking at all.

True. So what? Case C turns out to be rare in practice. But the additional point is that case C clearly indicates a system failure, not cause for immediate concern. That's preferable to the Spot failure I had over the boonies at the Canadian border.

On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 2:12:57 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 1:33:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 1:10:39 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
At 7pm (or any other time), you'll see one of three things from a cell phone track, a) a track still being laid down, b) a track that stopped for some reason at near ground level, c) a track that stopped for some reason at some much higher altitude. There is useful information here in all three cases.


-Evan / T8

Case "C" ("a track that stopped for some reason at some much higher altitude") may mean: glider entered an area with no cellphone coverage even at higher altitudes. Or, maybe the glider descended too low for cellphone coverage in that area, and is currently on the ground - or working on a low save. Or, it may mean that the battery in the cellphone died. Or the app crashed (not the glider). Or the cellphone slipped under the pilot and lost GPS signal. In short, not a lot more info than having no tracking at all.

True. So what? Case C turns out to be rare in practice. But the additional point is that case C clearly indicates a system failure, not cause for immediate concern. That's preferable to the Spot failure I had over the boonies at the Canadian border.

Not all the possible meanings of "case C" are a system failure.

Also, Case A ("a track still being laid down") doesn't tell you whether the pilot WILL land out later - which may or may not be reported later as a "Case B" - or a phone call. And Case B ("a track that stopped for some reason at near ground level") doesn't tell you whether the pilot is safe, and where exactly he is, and how to get there. Lacking post-landing communications you're always left in the semi-dark as to the real situation. I agree that in the bad case of an unsafe landing a "case B" truncated track might help search and rescue to some extent.

On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 9:42:00 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
Friends:
I am trying to learn more about how different clubs with active XC pilots flying privately owned gliders handle the problem of determining "Is everybody back safely?" - before everybody at the airport goes home.

In my club we frequently shut down training operations around 5:00 pm or so and the day's Duty Officer, the instructors and tow pilots will all leave, but we will often still have pilots out on course sometimes as late as 7:00 pm or later. Some pilots have landed back to find that they are the only ones at the airfield. It has happened to me several times.

It seems that there is a real risk of an accident happening on course and nobody realizing it until the next day, or a risk that somebody lands out safely but that fact is not communicated back to the airfield (with a lot of unnecessary worry and confusion).

I'm trying to come up with a procedure that makes sense for our club and so I was hoping people would share here how they try to solve this problem.

Thanks
Roy B.
GBSC Chief Pilot

The Aero Club Albatross drinking club sticks around while there is still flying going on. They keep drinking until the last pilot is down (and long thereafter).

The longer the last pilot is up, the bigger their challenge! They've never complained about my routine late landings, sometimes at sunset.

As such, there's always people around at Blairstown Airport. And then everyone goes out and gets dinner after a nice soaring day.

This is why a healthy social culture at a club is really important.

All the best,
Daniel

On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 2:49:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 2:12:57 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 1:33:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 1:10:39 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
At 7pm (or any other time), you'll see one of three things from a cell phone track, a) a track still being laid down, b) a track that stopped for some reason at near ground level, c) a track that stopped for some reason at some much higher altitude. There is useful information here in all three cases.


-Evan / T8

Case "C" ("a track that stopped for some reason at some much higher altitude") may mean: glider entered an area with no cellphone coverage even at higher altitudes. Or, maybe the glider descended too low for cellphone coverage in that area, and is currently on the ground - or working on a low save. Or, it may mean that the battery in the cellphone died. Or the app crashed (not the glider). Or the cellphone slipped under the pilot and lost GPS signal. In short, not a lot more info than having no tracking at all.

True. So what? Case C turns out to be rare in practice. But the additional point is that case C clearly indicates a system failure, not cause for immediate concern. That's preferable to the Spot failure I had over the boonies at the Canadian border.

Not all the possible meanings of "case C" are a system failure.

Also, Case A ("a track still being laid down") doesn't tell you whether the pilot WILL land out later - which may or may not be reported later as a "Case B" - or a phone call. And Case B ("a track that stopped for some reason at near ground level") doesn't tell you whether the pilot is safe, and where exactly he is, and how to get there. Lacking post-landing communications you're always left in the semi-dark as to the real situation. I agree that in the bad case of an unsafe landing a "case B" truncated track might help search and rescue to some extent.

We'll let you know when the tracking apps start accurately predicting the future and auto generating crew instructions.

Not disagreeing with you (assuming your post was directed at me.....).
I stated it was not the best.

Just saying our normal club method works, but may need improvement.
Also stated what I did "once" since the radio check was fine on the ground within a few hundred feet. Didn't know I had an issue until later in the flight.
I figured whatever I could send (via text) to give a general direction/flight plan was better than nothing.

I do believe I covered my bases in my first post. What I did, why I did it, why it was not the best, why our club may need to do something else.

I won't even go into a Friday flight way over trees (almost last leg, Sullivan County airport to CherryRidge, then home) with no crew on the ground, nobody (other than the two of us) on the ground having a clue where we had been, where we were going. Good thing we made it back home.
This way before trackers, I believe before cellphones you could fit in a large pocket.

Some on here will know the area......the crap some of us did way back when..........

If a club member (even in his own plane) is still flying and unaccounted for, I think it is absolutely unacceptable for the club operations to shut down. That's why you join (and pay for) a club!

At our club, the "hard core" hangs around until the last ship is down or retrieved. Tracking is via Spot or Cell or radio calls. We more commonly do aero retrieves, so a tow plane and pilot will be ready until we are sure they are not needed (then, and only then, do we open the beer cooler).

The club I was a member of (for 3 months) before joining this one did not have that philosophy. After they asked me to come back and land on a windy but perfectly good XC day - around 2pm! - because they couldn't stay up and were all about to go home, I quit and moved to a much more accommodating operation. And haven't regretted it a minute. My wife/crew was surprised I lasted that long!

Kirk
66

On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 5:17:26 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
If a club member (even in his own plane) is still flying and unaccounted for, I think it is absolutely unacceptable for the club operations to shut down. That's why you join (and pay for) a club!

At our club, the "hard core" hangs around until the last ship is down or retrieved. Tracking is via Spot or Cell or radio calls. We more commonly do aero retrieves, so a tow plane and pilot will be ready until we are sure they are not needed (then, and only then, do we open the beer cooler).

The club I was a member of (for 3 months) before joining this one did not have that philosophy. After they asked me to come back and land on a windy but perfectly good XC day - around 2pm! - because they couldn't stay up and were all about to go home, I quit and moved to a much more accommodating operation. And haven't regretted it a minute. My wife/crew was surprised I lasted that long!

Kirk
66

The club wanted you down early so they can go home? Wow, that's amazing, Kirk.

Despite what I said above about it being the responsibility of "buddies" and not the club as a whole, it is generally the case in our club too that the "hard core" stick around until everybody's back home and de-rigged. But we don't have any firm "procedures" for that, AFAIK. At this point we have so many members with private gliders that on a good XC day there are usually several members flying XC, and some of those are the "hard core" that wait around. It wasn't always like that.

Seeyou, XCSoar and TopHat can Bluetooth to your phone which then sends
location updates to Livetrack24 and other soaring websites. It helps to
have an
auxiliary battery for the phone.

That's basically the backup to my PLB if I'm not able to get it out of my
pocket
and activate it.

Our last radio issue was that the club could hear me from ten miles away,
but I
couldn't hear them, even though I could hear another club 80 miles away in
the
same direction.

As for retrieves, I've found radio calls on the club frequency work quite
well. If
the lift is good enough to get you that far away, there's often other
pilots not
that far away who can hear you and get word to the club.

A couple times I've bummed a ride back from a local.

Our club normally has an Opps Officer assigned each day, The normal club policy its to have the OO stay at the field, or find a substitute, until all the pilots are accounted for.

We also have a number of members that live very close to the field, less than a mile, and they often will take over if the OO has to leave before everyone is home, or a retrieve is in progress.

IIRC, back more than a few years ago when we had no tracking systems or cell phones We had a fairly new pilot trying for a gold distance flight out of Turf, while the rest of us were flying a racing task of around 200 miles. After landing everyone back except the newbie. we tied down and started the debriefing. Looking around we saw his wife sitting in the car waiting on him. It was very close to dark and we were getting worried, so the decision was made and straws drawn as to who was going to call flight service and report our missing pilot. The side of the conversation I heard went something like this. "Hi this Alan ------, Im calling to report a missing glider and pilot, what say again, yes yes thats the pilot, good, he is safe at Indian Hills, we will send his crew. Thank you very much" Turns out that as soon as he landed he switched to 121.5 and called a airliner passing overhead and they relayed back to Flight service his name and N number and location so that when we called to report him missing they had the info. Something I have never had to do, but ingenious just the same