uh oh, Plane flies over Bush motorcade

I hope the pilot has his humble hat screwed on tight. A run-in with a
Secret Service operation will remind you what life in Iraq must have been
like. Just shut-up, avert your eyes, and say thank you, may I have another
sir.

Yes. It is happening in the land of the free, the brave and the keeper
of freedom in the whole world.

What's happening? Torture, starvation, summary execution up against
the prison wall, burial in a mass grave?

I guess I wouldn't know about that. My only sources of information are
the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

Cub Driver writes:

What's happening? Torture, starvation, summary execution up against
the prison wall, burial in a mass grave?

I guess I wouldn't know about that. My only sources of information
are the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times.

Nope, but your government has approved secret military tribunals and
the suspension of Habeas Corpus and normal rules of evidence for any
foreigner or American they consider a terrorist suspect. That's a
little scary, since in theory, a pilot who busts anything could be
held indefinitely and tried secretly, without access to a lawyer or a
civilian court of law or even the ability to call home and say they're
alright. Hopefully, no one will abuse that power, but it's not a
power most free countries give to their military or law enforcement in
the first place.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

In article , Mutts wrote:
The FAA has given pilots barely 12 hours' notice in each city. "Because they
were issued so late, flight service stations would not have known to warn
pilots who did their flight planning at the end of the business day on
Wednesday about the restrictions," said AOPA Vice President of Regulatory
Affairs Melissa Bailey. "That's just not acceptable."

On the other hand, it's also not acceptable how many pilots don't even
make use of information that is *easily*, *readily* available to them.

Two weekends ago, the Molson Indy was in Toronto and there was a
temporary restriction on flying within 1 nautical mile of the race,
from ground to 5000 feet (mostly because that area was already so full
of blimps and helicopter rides and banner tow flights and whatever).

Anyway, in addition to being in the NOTAMs for the area, it was on
the ATIS for Toronto City Centre Airport (whose control zone the
restriction was in). And for the hour or so that I was out flying,
time and again I'd hear the following conversation:

C-GABC: City Tower, this is GABC with information Lima, inbound
for some sightseeing over the city at 2000 feet.
Tower: ABC, how do you intend to avoid the restricted airspace
at your 12:00?
C-GABC: ...I wasn't aware of any restriction.

It wasn't just one aircraft, either. It was almost every
airplane that was coming in to the city from the surrounding
airports. And without fail, they all said that they'd listened
to the ATIS, but it was apparent that they'd only left it on
long enough to get the information version letter (either that
or they didn't understand the phrase "Pilots are advised that
the airpace within a one mile radius of the Molson Indy and from
ground to 5000 feet is restricted").

I felt bad for the poor controller -- he was working alone, tower
and ground, and having to deal with really busyt airpsace and lots
and lots of pilots who didn't bother getting any information before
their flights. By the end, he was starting to get a little bit
snippy, and to tell the truth, I can't say as I blamed him...

- awh

3 casual contacts - none directly with the Prez though. Watched a bad one
down in the Wall Street area some years ago where they bowled over some guy
who had no idea what hit him. He reacted strongly (not physically) and they
put him down pretty hard. I was real glad it wasn't me. That's what colored
my comment. Very uninformed though.

Given their mission, I can imagine a very professional culture built around
a very serious mission. I can also imagine that "politeness" and "respect
for the general public" may or may not be part of it. Absolute power tends
to corrupt absolutely and all that. But I don't know anything for a fact.

I used to live near someone who had a semi-frequent visitor who had SS
protection. Never knew who it was. Got used to the occassional motorcade
or blocked street. The local police were used to do some of the work but
they were definitely not happy about it. I think they always felt a bit
used because they often seemed to get posted on diversionary missions and
never knew what was really happening (e.g. "go stand in this rainstorm and
block this exit from the Interstate...oh, btw, you can unblock it now, we
took her thru another route") But that's just biz as usual I guess.

"Peter Gottlieb" wrote in message
news

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
.com...

I hope the pilot has his humble hat screwed on tight. A run-in with a
Secret Service operation will remind you what life in Iraq must have
been
like. Just shut-up, avert your eyes, and say thank you, may I have
another
sir.

Have you ever had experience being questioned by the Secret Service or are
you just guessing?

My experience has been that they are very determined, very professional,
very polite, and very determined.

This doesn't make you think just a little bit? You are protecting the
government and not your people.

your logic is flawed.

protecting the president doesn't necessarily mean that US people
are not being protected.


The logic is not flawed, and the comment is quite insightful. It's not that
protecting the prez is antithetical to protecting the people (my own opinion
notwithstanding g), but that the focus of the protection is subtlely but
significantly different. It is from that focus that other actions come about.

Jose

(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

I am so paranoid that I get two briefings, one through duats at
home
and then right after pre-flight I call the FSS with my cell
phone and talk to an actual human for the absolute freshest
info. TFRs pop up alot in southern california
with all our wildfires so it can be rather dynamic.

I hope we find out how the motorcade guy screwed up. Its
possible
I guess that he got a briefing and the FSS screwed up. If he
didnt get a briefing at all then its really his fault.


In article , says...


It wasn't just one aircraft, either. It was almost every
airplane that was coming in to the city from the surrounding
airports. And without fail, they all said that they'd
listened
to the ATIS, but it was apparent that they'd only left it on
long enough to get the information version letter (either that
or they didn't understand the phrase "Pilots are advised that
the airpace within a one mile radius of the Molson Indy and
from
ground to 5000 feet is restricted").

I felt bad for the poor controller -- he was working alone,
tower
and ground, and having to deal with really busyt airpsace and
lots
and lots of pilots who didn't bother getting any information
before
their flights. By the end, he was starting to get a little
bit
snippy, and to tell the truth, I can't say as I blamed him...

- awh

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:20:44 +0200, Martin Hotze
wrote:

"Maule Driver" wrote:

I hope the pilot has his humble hat screwed on tight. A run-in with a
Secret Service operation will remind you what life in Iraq must have been
like. Just shut-up, avert your eyes, and say thank you, may I have another
sir.


Yes. It is happening in the land of the free, the brave and the keeper
of freedom in the whole world.
This doesn't make you think just a little bit? You are protecting the
government and not your people.

"Used to be" the "TFR" was 3000 and 3. 3000 AGL and 3 miles either
side of the motorcade. They even gave the routes/highways to avoid
between such and such times.



I'm just glad to hear it wasn't some solo student out boring holes in the
practice area. That would have been a very traumatic flight.

Might have been better as the student could legitimately claim
ignorance. Not the licensed pilot, even if the TFR popped up *after*
he was airborne.

Now days I even get a complete briefing on bright beautiful sunshiny
days. I also listen to ATIS from the nearest airport along my flight
path that has it .

The AOPA really raised a ruckus over the short lead time for the one
in Detroit this past week.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)


true.

#m

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:38:18 -0400, Drew Hamilton wrote:

In article , Mutts wrote:
The FAA has given pilots barely 12 hours' notice in each city. "Because they
were issued so late, flight service stations would not have known to warn
pilots who did their flight planning at the end of the business day on
Wednesday about the restrictions," said AOPA Vice President of Regulatory
Affairs Melissa Bailey. "That's just not acceptable."

On the other hand, it's also not acceptable how many pilots don't even
make use of information that is *easily*, *readily* available to them.

Two weekends ago, the Molson Indy was in Toronto and there was a
temporary restriction on flying within 1 nautical mile of the race,
from ground to 5000 feet (mostly because that area was already so full
of blimps and helicopter rides and banner tow flights and whatever).

Anyway, in addition to being in the NOTAMs for the area, it was on
the ATIS for Toronto City Centre Airport (whose control zone the
restriction was in). And for the hour or so that I was out flying,
time and again I'd hear the following conversation:

C-GABC: City Tower, this is GABC with information Lima, inbound
for some sightseeing over the city at 2000 feet.
Tower: ABC, how do you intend to avoid the restricted airspace
at your 12:00?
C-GABC: ...I wasn't aware of any restriction.

It wasn't just one aircraft, either. It was almost every
airplane that was coming in to the city from the surrounding
airports. And without fail, they all said that they'd listened
to the ATIS, but it was apparent that they'd only left it on

Unless they were very familiar with the area it might not have meant
any thing to them. They (some of them) might have been planning on
asking for clarification.

I've been to Toronto a number of times, but I had no idea as to what
the Molson Indi was. Nor would I know the location from that
description except that it was some where in the city. I'm not all
that far away...over in Michigan. Transiting Ontario to New York
takes me very close to Toronto although I've not gone through there in
quite a while.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

long enough to get the information version letter (either that
or they didn't understand the phrase "Pilots are advised that
the airpace within a one mile radius of the Molson Indy and from
ground to 5000 feet is restricted").

I felt bad for the poor controller -- he was working alone, tower
and ground, and having to deal with really busyt airpsace and lots
and lots of pilots who didn't bother getting any information before
their flights. By the end, he was starting to get a little bit
snippy, and to tell the truth, I can't say as I blamed him...

- awh

I am so paranoid that I get two briefings, one through duats at
home
and then right after pre-flight I call the FSS with my cell
phone and talk to an actual human for the absolute freshest

I fly a Piper Cub out of Hampton NH, which is within the 30-mile TFR
around Kennebunkport ME that springs up whenever Bush 43 visits Bush
41. Since I usually fly first thing in the morning, and there own't be
anyone at the airport to warn me, I just call FSS as a matter of
routine and ask about the TFRs. Then I say: "Anything else I should
know?" Never has one shown the slightest bit of irritation, yet their
calls must have doubled or trebled over the past year or two.

It's been a helpful development for me. I'd fallen out of the habit of
checking with FSS, because I feel stupid asking for a briefing on a
50-mile XC in a 60-knot airplane--there's always the feeling that
somebody might say: "Yeah, why don't you just look out the window?"
Now I'm back in the habit again, and that's good, I reckon.
all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

I can also imagine that "politeness" and "respect
for the general public" may or may not be part of it

Politeness is going to be very much a part of the Secret Service
ethos, just as it is with the FBI or even the U.S. Army. You're going
to be much safer with them than with the lads in the Newmarket NH
police force (or the Los Angeles police force, for that matter).

(That's after you're captured, of course. That should not be a hurtful
process if you're in an airplane and your hands are visible, as
opposed to being on a street corner with one hand inside your jacket.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub