COTS loggers - Plan B

Those of you following the thread on COTS for GPS loggers with (I hope) some
amusement may be interested to know that I'm coming up with a Plan B - let's
call it the Treasure of Sierra Madre Gambit ("Badges - we don't need no
stinkin' badges").* The logic of the TSMG is essentially as follows:

1. COTS loggers are becoming increasingly acceptable to local governing
bodies (e.g. the Soaring Society of America, Gliding Federation of
Australia) for contests and records, even up to the national level in some
cases.

2. IGC "approved" loggers are therefore becoming a smaller market appealing
only to those in international competition, FAI badge flying, and in nations
where "approved" loggers are required for their competitions. Given a
decreasing market and fixed production costs, prices can only go up. In
the past, many of the most strident supporters of excess security and
complexity have stood to gain financially - clear conflict of interest.

3. Local governing bodies are already charged with administering the FAI
Badge process. Although the standards are handed down, the cost of
administration and processing are borne at the local level. This means that
a lot of the talent to deal with this issues already exists outside of the
IGC.

4. The value of badges in particular is primarily one of personal
achievement, especially for the entry-level badges. The impact of abuse
from a financial or other perspective is minimal, limited primarily to the
conscience of the abuser.

Therefore, I will be submitting a proposal to the SSA that the United States
break away from the FAI badge program insofar as the requirement for "Secure
Loggers" is concerned. All other aspects, including the standards for the
various badges, rules, etc. would be followed, with the possible exception
of Altitude Measurement. The net result would be that SSA badges would
indicate the same achievements as the "official" FAI badges, but they would
not be internationally sanctioned.

I want to be perfectly clear that this would certainly cause some serious
repercussions, and I have yet to think through all of them. A few obvious
ones:

1. Given a shrinking market, developing secure loggers according to existing
IGC standard might become commercially prohibitive, resulting in some
"issues" for world competition and records.

2. Ideally, a separate "breakaway republic" of like-minded local governing
bodies would agree on standards which might then be re-introduced to the IGC
with a chance of getting passed.

3. The dissention and animosity created in this approach might lead to a
situation as has happened in the US between various automobile racing
organizations (splinter factions and a general decrease in the popularity of
that sort of racing).

4. There does need to be a standard for COTS security and process, and
these would need to address the same issues as the current IGC approved
loggers. However, by removing the entrenched bureaucracy, these standards
should be developed and released within months, not years.

5. Some very dedicated, talented, hard-working individuals might be
alienated and say to hell with all of this. This would be a loss, but there
are many more equally talented people just waiting in the wings who lack
only the political "legitimacy" of the IGC stamp.

Maybe the above will stir the pot a bit....


*Note: This is a famous American movie (based on a book of the same name)
with a now legendary scene in which a Mexican bandit utters the above
statement. Astute observers might comment that my approach would be better
called the George Bush Gambit, but I think the connotation there might be
fatal to future international cooperation.

At 15:36 26 May 2004, Papa3 wrote:

Lots of stuff snipped.

4. The value of badges in particular is primarily
one of personal
achievement, especially for the entry-level badges.
The impact of abuse
from a financial or other perspective is minimal, limited
primarily to the
conscience of the abuser.


Erm, well actually, if you turn up at a lot of British
Gliding Clubs you won't get to fly the shiny toys unless
you have a silver badge, sometimes even a gold badge.
This isn't the club's fault, to be able to afford the
insurance we have to restrict flying the shiny plastic
to people who can demonstrate a certain level of competence,
the insurance companies require this to be an internationally
recognised badge rather than the instructors discretion
on reading a log book.

Cheers,

Andrew Warbrick

In Sweden COTS are approved for national competitions (including our
decentralized competition) and National records. And has so been since
we started using GPS loggers 10 years ago.

However, we see that the IGC approved loggers (especially the
VOlkslogger and Colibri) are becoming more and more popular. I think
this is due to the fact that a Volkslogger is about half the price of a
logging Garmin but the Volsklogger i smore simple to use.

However, I am in favour of approving COTS for badge verification.

I have always had the opinion that it is the cheaters that shall pay not
the honest ones. What is the punishment for someone cheating today? You
loose your sporting license for a year or so instead of lifetime.

Robert Danewid
president
Swedish Soaring Federation

Papa3 wrote:
Those of you following the thread on COTS for GPS loggers with (I hope) some
amusement may be interested to know that I'm coming up with a Plan B - let's
call it the Treasure of Sierra Madre Gambit ("Badges - we don't need no
stinkin' badges").* The logic of the TSMG is essentially as follows:

1. COTS loggers are becoming increasingly acceptable to local governing
bodies (e.g. the Soaring Society of America, Gliding Federation of
Australia) for contests and records, even up to the national level in some
cases.

2. IGC "approved" loggers are therefore becoming a smaller market appealing
only to those in international competition, FAI badge flying, and in nations
where "approved" loggers are required for their competitions. Given a
decreasing market and fixed production costs, prices can only go up. In
the past, many of the most strident supporters of excess security and
complexity have stood to gain financially - clear conflict of interest.

3. Local governing bodies are already charged with administering the FAI
Badge process. Although the standards are handed down, the cost of
administration and processing are borne at the local level. This means that
a lot of the talent to deal with this issues already exists outside of the
IGC.

4. The value of badges in particular is primarily one of personal
achievement, especially for the entry-level badges. The impact of abuse
from a financial or other perspective is minimal, limited primarily to the
conscience of the abuser.

Therefore, I will be submitting a proposal to the SSA that the United States
break away from the FAI badge program insofar as the requirement for "Secure
Loggers" is concerned. All other aspects, including the standards for the
various badges, rules, etc. would be followed, with the possible exception
of Altitude Measurement. The net result would be that SSA badges would
indicate the same achievements as the "official" FAI badges, but they would
not be internationally sanctioned.

I want to be perfectly clear that this would certainly cause some serious
repercussions, and I have yet to think through all of them. A few obvious
ones:

1. Given a shrinking market, developing secure loggers according to existing
IGC standard might become commercially prohibitive, resulting in some
"issues" for world competition and records.

2. Ideally, a separate "breakaway republic" of like-minded local governing
bodies would agree on standards which might then be re-introduced to the IGC
with a chance of getting passed.

3. The dissention and animosity created in this approach might lead to a
situation as has happened in the US between various automobile racing
organizations (splinter factions and a general decrease in the popularity of
that sort of racing).

4. There does need to be a standard for COTS security and process, and
these would need to address the same issues as the current IGC approved
loggers. However, by removing the entrenched bureaucracy, these standards
should be developed and released within months, not years.

5. Some very dedicated, talented, hard-working individuals might be
alienated and say to hell with all of this. This would be a loss, but there
are many more equally talented people just waiting in the wings who lack
only the political "legitimacy" of the IGC stamp.

Maybe the above will stir the pot a bit....


*Note: This is a famous American movie (based on a book of the same name)
with a now legendary scene in which a Mexican bandit utters the above
statement. Astute observers might comment that my approach would be better
called the George Bush Gambit, but I think the connotation there might be
fatal to future international cooperation.

Another Alternative, say Plan sub B or Plan B.1.0.Persue other groups who may have an unrecognized need
for secure flight logging, hopefully increasing the
number of units sold and realizing an economy of scale.
(partially joking) Alternatively it can always be
'walmarized'. Get Casio, Citizen or Vertech to produce
one. They each already have an altitude recording
watch and Casio and Citizen have a GPS watch. Wow
a wrist secure flight recorder.jeff

My experience may be a little different.

A Volkslogger came with the glider. I fly, I take the VL home, I
download the flights into SeeYou, it's fun to look at what I got up
to.

Unless I want to submit for a badge. Then, it's far too late to
download the flights when I get home - no, I have to download them on
the field in front of an Official Observer. To do that, I have to buy
a laptop, because if I download the files at home I might cheat. Buy
a laptop? Ouch.

And even that isn't enough: I can never seem to get the rules straight
(the FARs seem to be much easier reading than the badge rules) but it
seems like I'm supposed to have someone certify before takeoff that my
logger is in the glider, and have them certify that the same one is
still in there (sealed in there?) after landing. Okay, that's making
quite a fuss about documenting a fairly unremarkable Silver Altitude
flight. I mean, most of the guys at the field where I fly seem to get
Silver Altitude and Distance almost EVERY weekend! Now, I'm no
big-shot pilot, so for me Silver Distance will be a notable, if not
huge achievement. But do I really want to demand people at the
airport drop their day to help me document it? For what? My friends
will believe me, if I trouble them with the bragging. The FAA
believes me when I make entries in my logbook and sign it. If I do a
cool flight I can post it on OLC. But for a Silver badge, I need to
do paperwork as if I were going for a world record.

Way too much trouble. Ah, heck with it.

Finbar wrote:

My experience may be a little different.

A Volkslogger came with the glider. I fly, I take the VL home, I
download the flights into SeeYou, it's fun to look at what I got up
to.

Unless I want to submit for a badge. Then, it's far too late to
download the flights when I get home - no, I have to download them on
the field in front of an Official Observer. To do that, I have to buy
a laptop, because if I download the files at home I might cheat. Buy
a laptop? Ouch.

There is at least one alternative: the OO keeps the logger until there
is an opportunity to download the file; e.g., at home that evening, or
the next day, or whenever it's convenient.

You probably don't even need a laptop, either: a cheap iPaq or Palm PDA
can probably do the job for much less money and hassle, and it can also
be used with the logger for navigation while you fly.

Or borrow a laptop or PDA. Lots of your buds have them, and would be
glad to bring one to the field if they knew what you were up to. I
would! Actually, I bring a PDA to the field all time in my glider, and
have used it to download people's flights. Easy. Also, I'm going to
bring a laptop in the future, so we can look at our flights while
drinking a beer.


And even that isn't enough: I can never seem to get the rules straight
(the FARs seem to be much easier reading than the badge rules) but it
seems like I'm supposed to have someone certify before takeoff that my
logger is in the glider, and have them certify that the same one is
still in there (sealed in there?) after landing.

Yes, the OO (whether using a flight recorder or cameras/barograph) is
supposed to actually observe the flight! If so, no sealing to the glider
is required. Witnesses may used in some circumstances, generally with
sealing. I find this the easiest method.

Okay, that's making
quite a fuss about documenting a fairly unremarkable Silver Altitude
flight. I mean, most of the guys at the field where I fly seem to get
Silver Altitude and Distance almost EVERY weekend! Now, I'm no
big-shot pilot, so for me Silver Distance will be a notable, if not
huge achievement. But do I really want to demand people at the
airport drop their day to help me document it?

It shoudn't take a day. A quick check just before launch, and then one
on landing. For Silver distance, you won't be gone that long!

For what? My friends
will believe me, if I trouble them with the bragging. The FAA
believes me when I make entries in my logbook and sign it. If I do a
cool flight I can post it on OLC. But for a Silver badge, I need to
do paperwork as if I were going for a world record.

You'll know how wrong that is when you apply for a world record! After
the first couple of tries, it will seem much easier. You are learning
the system on a fairly easy badge, which be useful when you go to the
higher badges. You wouldn't want to make a mistake when you finally
accomplish your diamond distance, would you?

Way too much trouble. Ah, heck with it.

Revisit the situation. Think about how hard soaring seemed in the very
beginning. You can do it, and you can do it easily after some practice.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the suggestions. I understand they were intended to be
helpful, but I think you illustrated my point nicely: badges are a
logistics hassle! I really don't like to whine, but to this newcomer
the whole badge business strikes me as being basically insulting, and
seriously un-fun.

Let me first explain what I think is fun. I put my logger in the
glider, I declare a task (if appropriate), I fly, I land, I go home, I
download the track log and, if it seems like a good 'un I share it
with my friends. And if there are achievement badges to be had, I
email the track log to wherever it needs to go, along with a
declaration that indeed it's the real McCoy. Since it IS a secure
logger, and it has my name in the header data, and since that basic
technology (public/private key encryption) is sufficient to verify
bank transactions, we should be done. Simple. Fun.

What is not fun? Unless I'm documenting something worth real money,
dragging other pilots or the busy FBO staff out to my glider to
confirm that my logger is installed and sealed before and after every
flight is not fun. Standing by my just-landed glider on a deserted
airport (I get back before everyone else, after all) shouting "Hey!
Someone come out and verify that I'm not the kind of guy who'd slip a
rigged logger into my glider! Someone?" is not fun - actually it's
pretty demeaning.

There is at least one alternative: the OO keeps the logger until there
is an opportunity to download the file; e.g., at home that evening, or
the next day, or whenever it's convenient.

Since the software is on my computer, either the OO is going to come
home with me to do this, or am I going to go home with the OO,
assuming they have a compatible setup at home. I live 90 minutes from
the field: someone's going to be doing a lot of driving.

You probably don't even need a laptop, either: a cheap iPaq or Palm PDA
can probably do the job for much less money and hassle, and it can also
be used with the logger for navigation while you fly.

Actually, log files downloaded to a PDA are not acceptable to the IGC
for a badge claim. And even if they were acceptable, now the file has
to be downloaded from the PDA somehow: same problem as before. Or I
could just download the file at home and email it to the OO...

Or borrow a laptop or PDA. Lots of your buds have them,
....
Also, I'm going to
bring a laptop in the future, so we can look at our flights while
drinking a beer.

Well, certainly a sociable suggestion! But again, I don't see myself
calling around my buddies saying "are you going flying today, do you
have a laptop with data-gcs.exe installed that you could bring with
you on the off-chance that I actually make a Silver badge leg today?"

Why don't we just assume that I buy a laptop, and move on?

Yes, the OO (whether using a flight recorder or cameras/barograph) is
supposed to actually observe the flight! If so, no sealing to the glider
is required. Witnesses may used in some circumstances, generally with
sealing. I find this the easiest method.

I thought this was the beauty of the secure logger: IT OBSERVES THE
FLIGHT. Oh, sure, I could have arranged for someone else to make the
flight with my name in the logger declaration file. I'm just
picturing the reaction I'd get if I started calling around asking for
a volunteer to do that...

...After
the first couple of tries, it will seem much easier. You are learning
the system on a fairly easy badge, which be useful when you go to the
higher badges. You wouldn't want to make a mistake when you finally
accomplish your diamond distance, would you?

Well, if none of this badge bureaucracy existed and I were to fly the
equivalent of a diamond distance flight (I wish!), no doubt I'd show
the log to my buddies and maybe post it where my friends could look at
it and we'd celebrate with a beer. But with the badge system, now I
didn't "really" fly that distance unless I can prove it! Pretty
insulting!

I fly for fun. Learning to fly was work, but also fun, and the reward
was obvious. Being assumed guilty until proven innocent is not fun.
Bugging busy people to have them verify that I'm not the kind of
contemptible, pathetic loser who'd swap loggers for a Silver badge,
well, it's just not fun. If badges become a requirement for flying, I
guess I may have to deal with them. But otherwise, I read the badge
regs and my reaction is... whoever these people are, they sound like
paranoid losers!

(Deep breath.)

If I fly a Silver Distance leg and the line boy who runs my wing for
takeoff happens to be there when I land and we can figure out who is
an OO and the OO doesn't ask about whether the logger was sealed to
the glider and is willing to accept an emailed file or there happens
to be someone nearby with a laptop with data-gcs.exe and a floppy
drive - and a spare floppy disk (who has either any more?) - then I
may have something to submit. Otherwise... life's too busy and too
short. Heck with it.

X-no-archive: yes
In article , Finbar
writes
You probably don't even need a laptop, either: a cheap iPaq or Palm PDA
can probably do the job for much less money and hassle, and it can also
be used with the logger for navigation while you fly.

Actually, log files downloaded to a PDA are not acceptable to the IGC
for a badge claim. And even if they were acceptable, now the file has
to be downloaded from the PDA somehow: same problem as before. Or I
could just download the file at home and email it to the OO...

Misunderstanding here.

It is not acceptable to use a PDA as a Flight Recorder, but there is no
reason on earth why you cant use the PDA to Download the Approved
Recorder. After all, the PDA is just a very small PC, right?

Tim Newport-Peace

"Indecision is the Key to Flexibility."

Andrew Warbrick wrote:
At 15:36 26 May 2004, Papa3 wrote:

Erm, well actually, if you turn up at a lot of British
Gliding Clubs you won't get to fly the shiny toys unless
you have a silver badge, sometimes even a gold badge.
This isn't the club's fault, to be able to afford the
insurance we have to restrict flying the shiny plastic
to people who can demonstrate a certain level of competence,
the insurance companies require this to be an internationally
recognised badge rather than the instructors discretion
on reading a log book.

Yes - because the BGA's badges are part of the international badge
system. All it takes to change that is a stroke of the pen by the BGA
and a lunch or two with insurance company people to reassure them that
the actual standard of flying is not changing.

Next problem?

Graeme Cant

Cheers,

Andrew Warbrick

Finbar wrote:
Hi Eric,

Thanks for the suggestions. I understand they were intended to be
helpful, but I think you illustrated my point nicely: badges are a
logistics hassle! I really don't like to whine, but to this newcomer
the whole badge business strikes me as being basically insulting, and
seriously un-fun.

It's been like this for at least the 30 years I've been involved, but
people didn't seem to mind so much until flight recorders came along.
Maybe the internet just made it easier to gripe about it. It does seem
daunting the first time, but after that you quickly learn what minutiae
you can ignore, and it becomes much easier than it seems the first time.


Let me first explain what I think is fun. I put my logger in the
glider, I declare a task (if appropriate), I fly, I land, I go home, I
download the track log and, if it seems like a good 'un I share it
with my friends. And if there are achievement badges to be had, I
email the track log to wherever it needs to go, along with a
declaration that indeed it's the real McCoy. Since it IS a secure
logger, and it has my name in the header data, and since that basic
technology (public/private key encryption) is sufficient to verify
bank transactions, we should be done. Simple. Fun.

Basically the honor system, and not necessarily a bad idea, but I think
we are years from it for an international system of awards. Don't miss
out on the fun while we're waiting for it to happen.


What is not fun? Unless I'm documenting something worth real money,
dragging other pilots or the busy FBO staff out to my glider to
confirm that my logger is installed and sealed before and after every
flight is not fun.

If it's SEALED to the glider, you don't need to drag anyone out to
examine it. The sealing can be done days, weeks, months before hand, and
only needs to be examined by the OO when the log file is downloaded.
Nobody else needs to look at it. You do need appropriate witnesses for
the takeoff and landing (most cases) - doesn't have to be the OO.

It's true the OO has to spend some time with you, but on the day you
fly, it's just long enough to see you, the logger (and only if it's NOT
sealed), and the glider together before takeoff, then watch the takeoff.
That's 10-30 minutes or so, depending the towing situation. Heck, if
he's waiting behind you in the tow line, it's no extra time at all.

Please try it once, and see how it goes!

Standing by my just-landed glider on a deserted
airport (I get back before everyone else, after all) shouting "Hey!
Someone come out and verify that I'm not the kind of guy who'd slip a
rigged logger into my glider!

For a distance flight, you do not need the landing witness. This is not
a show-stopper requirement, though a witness must show up eventually, of
course.

Someone?" is not fun - actually it's
pretty demeaning.

Now this is new - I've never heard anyone think it's demeaning before.



There is at least one alternative: the OO keeps the logger until there
is an opportunity to download the file; e.g., at home that evening, or
the next day, or whenever it's convenient.


Since the software is on my computer, either the OO is going to come
home with me to do this, or am I going to go home with the OO,
assuming they have a compatible setup at home. I live 90 minutes from
the field: someone's going to be doing a lot of driving.

If the OO takes the logger, he can download the file at his convenience.
You don't have to be there, most desktops will handle it, and he can get
the software to do it off the internet. Or he can have someone else do
it while he observes. Or you can invite him over for dinner (or go to
his home and offer to take him and his wife out to dinner, which will
likely mean an eager OO next time!) to take care of the paperwork. Or
arrange for someone to bring a laptop to the field next time everyone
goes flying, and do it then.

You have 6 months to submit the paperwork for a badge, so it's something
that can be arranged for everyone's convenience. The only crucial thing
is the OO gets the flight file after the flight.

Talk to your OO about your concerns, and I think you'll find he's
willing and able to help you with them. He's done this before; also,
your fellow club members can probably help, too. Lot's of people have
laptops sitting around they'd be willing to bring to the field (or may
already be bringing for their loggers), or a PDA. You don't have to do
everything yourself - let your buds give you a hand!



You probably don't even need a laptop, either: a cheap iPaq or Palm PDA
can probably do the job for much less money and hassle, and it can also
be used with the logger for navigation while you fly.


Actually, log files downloaded to a PDA are not acceptable to the IGC
for a badge claim.

Tim addressed this.

And even if they were acceptable, now the file has
to be downloaded from the PDA somehow: same problem as before.

Most PDAs have a removable memory chip which the file goes onto.
Download the file, remove the chip and hand it to the OO. I do this
routinely, and have an extra chip so I can fly again without getting the
other chip back. Chips are cheap!

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA