Electrically Powered Ultralight Aircraft

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

I would be more interested in the specific horsepower required to
operate powered parachutes than their efficiency. This web site
mentions 50 HP to 65 HP:
http://www.all-about-powered-parachutes.com/faq.htm

That's what I have seen. We even have a tandem trike locally that uses a
Subaru.


There is a 14 HP Powered Paraglider (PPG) engine offered he
http://www.poweredparasports.com/Par...#Jet%20Details
They also state that the weight of their engines ranges from 46 lbs.
to 68 lbs.

If a 14 HP electric propulsion system weighing 46 lbs could be
constructed, apparently it would permit the use of PPGs by pilots up
to 180 lbs.

I would think that would be close to the bare minimum. I flew a fixed wing
hang glider on 10 HP for a while back in the 70s. A Manta Fledgling, and it
was very underpowered. Maybe 100 fpm climb or so.

"kontiki" wrote

Yeah sure, but its not practical for anything but an hour or two of
playing around on a Saturday afternoon.

Flight training in the pattern is an obvious first application.

"kontiki" wrote

Has anyone done an analysis on the amount of energy required to
produce a vehicle like this vs what it will actually "save" during
its supposed lifetime? Some of these exotic battery materials and
manufacturing techiques take a lot of energy on the front end to
produce, and dispose of and/or recycle on the back end. You have
to factor that into the net energy gain or loss of actual use of
these vehicles.


Since the ethanol discussion started, it seems we're starting to see more
and more "total industry ecosystem cost" analyses of this type. Anyway the
oil supply infrastructure does not come for free either. Even though initial
investments are already written off the infrastructure has to be maintained.
You might even want to count in the cost of the military power needed to
secure access to oil supplies, especially in the future.

On Wed, 8 Aug 2007 01:12:26 -0500, "Maxwell" wrote
in :


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

There is a 14 HP Powered Paraglider (PPG) engine offered he
http://www.poweredparasports.com/Par...#Jet%20Details
They also state that the weight of their engines ranges from 46 lbs.
to 68 lbs.

If a 14 HP electric propulsion system weighing 46 lbs could be
constructed, apparently it would permit the use of PPGs by pilots up
to 180 lbs.

I would think that would be close to the bare minimum. I flew a fixed wing
hang glider on 10 HP for a while back in the 70s. A Manta Fledgling, and it
was very underpowered. Maybe 100 fpm climb or so.


I would guess the rigid wing would have a higher L/D than a powered
parachute's 4:1, so it might require less power. Does that sound
correct in your experience?

Larry Dighera wrote:



I have no idea if a one hundred
horsepower motor of this type would weigh 100 lbs or not, but it seems
reasonable.

That's why I showed the first 100HP electric motor I could find. They
obviously don't make a 100HP motor of the type you showed or you would have
quoted it's specs.

I doubt they add the extra 1000 lbs just for the fun of it.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

I really hate to burst your bubble but, from the Sonex link above.

"Initial top speeds will reach approximately 130 mph, and endurance is
expected to range between 25-45 minutes or longer, depending upon power
usage on each individual flight."

Be sure to let us kneaux when it flies...

As of OshGosh, it hadn't...

On Wed, 8 Aug 2007 08:12:37 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in
:

They obviously don't make a 100HP motor of the type you showed or you would have
quoted it's specs.


Take a look at the ~75 HP electric motor installed in the Sonex Waiex:
http://www.sonexaircraft.com/news/im...light_5947.jpg

Exclusive of the two black boxes, the Sonex motor sure doesn't appear
to weigh any where near the 1,118 lbs motor you found. My guess would
be under 100 lbs. It is custom built for/by Sonex, so I'm not able to
quote its specifications.

You don't really believe Sonex is using an electric motor that weighs
any where near 1,118 lbs, do you. The entire empty weight of the
Waiex is only ~620 lbs with a gross weight of 1150 lbs.

On Aug 7, 3:49 pm, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net
wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 7, 3:04 pm, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net
wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 7 Aug 2007 14:51:55 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in
:

all this talk of electric airplanes while a nice thought is
something that at best is way in the future.

That's only true if you overlook Randall Fishman's electrically
powered ultralight (http://www.electraflyer.com) and Mr. Monnett's
Sonex proof-of-concept Waiex aircraft
(http://www.sonexaircraft.com/press/r...r_072407.html).

But, I know, you were referring to electrically powered aircraft
with the same utility as today's GA aircraft, right?

Right. When the electric Sonex can do the same thing the VW powered
Sonex can do then it will become something more than an interesting
idea.

I have not seen any significant flight duration claim on the Sonex,
which speaks well for the design team.

I really hate to burst your bubble but, from the Sonex link above.

"Initial top speeds will reach approximately 130 mph, and endurance is
expected to range between 25-45 minutes or longer, depending upon power
usage on each individual flight."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I also read that but "Expected to be" isn't a claim and 45 minutes is
not what I would call significant duration.

On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 07:20:22 -0700, wrote in
.com:


I have not seen any significant flight duration claim on the Sonex,
which speaks well for the design team.

I really hate to burst your bubble but, from the Sonex link above.

"Initial top speeds will reach approximately 130 mph, and endurance is
expected to range between 25-45 minutes or longer, depending upon power
usage on each individual flight."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I also read that but "Expected to be" isn't a claim and 45 minutes is
not what I would call significant duration.

Would you characterize 12 seconds ad significant?

http://www.thewrightbrothers.org/fivefirstflights.html
The First Flight, spanning some 120 feet in 12 seconds. The next
flight, Wilbur’s first flight on the 17th, extended to some 175
feet in 13 seconds and a landing was accomplished with no damage
to The Flyer. Orville’s second attempt that day, and his last one
in The Flyer, carried him just over 200 feet in 15 seconds and
ended with a safe landing. At noon, Wilbur took-off on the last
and the longest flight which The Flyer would ever make, and flew
for 852 feet, staying aloft for 59 seconds.

On Aug 8, 8:35 am, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 07:20:22 -0700, wrote in
.com:



I have not seen any significant flight duration claim on the Sonex,
which speaks well for the design team.

I really hate to burst your bubble but, from the Sonex link above.

"Initial top speeds will reach approximately 130 mph, and endurance is
expected to range between 25-45 minutes or longer, depending upon power
usage on each individual flight."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I also read that but "Expected to be" isn't a claim and 45 minutes is
not what I would call significant duration.

Would you characterize 12 seconds ad significant?

http://www.thewrightbrothers.org/fivefirstflights.html
The First Flight, spanning some 120 feet in 12 seconds. The next
flight, Wilbur's first flight on the 17th, extended to some 175
feet in 13 seconds and a landing was accomplished with no damage
to The Flyer. Orville's second attempt that day, and his last one
in The Flyer, carried him just over 200 feet in 15 seconds and
ended with a safe landing. At noon, Wilbur took-off on the last
and the longest flight which The Flyer would ever make, and flew
for 852 feet, staying aloft for 59 seconds.

I guess I should have clarified that my comments refer to the here and
now where 12 seconds and\or 45 minutes are both insignificant in terms
of useful flight duration. While any duration is important the first
time achieved it will only become marketable when it has reached a
practical use point. Hopefully today's developments will lead to
something in the future that is but for now they are interesting
engineering experiments. Most people should and do applaud the efforts
while some think the future is already here. For those adventurers we
have $100,000 cars and underpowered trikes available right now.
I'm going to hold off for a little while longer.