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#21
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On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:44:17 -0800, "Mike Kanze"
wrote: ISTR - in the course of the discussion re the EP-3 forced landing in China - some comment to the effect that there has never been a P-3 airframe ditching that did not involve at least some loss of life. Does a "successful" P-3 airframe ditching mean that at least one soul survived? In the North Pacific ditch one person was killed on impact (Tank 5 came up through the deck and pinned him to the overhead). I don't know of casualties in the Persian Gulf incident. Perhaps we could quibbe over "successful" but if all but one got out then that would be "successful" (at least as opposed to only one got out) Another comment I encountered was that the EP-3 community did not carry parachutes for some years, reason being that all them antennae protruding from the fuselage would pretty much shred the first soul out the hatch. I think this changed some time before the VQ-1 crew painted that Chinese F-8 silhouette on their replacement bird. Not being familiar with the EP-3 I can't comment. Bill Kambic |
#22
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Flying the F104A with the aging J79-3b engine we practiced
'precautionary patterns' a lot because we still had problems with the oil system. On a nice VFR day with winds not a problem, you started over the 'numbers' at the end of a long runway at 15000 AGL at 260 KIAS, gear up, T/O flaps set, sink rate about 4500fpm. One turn and you were on final, aiming for a 'window' (envision a volleyball net) right over the approach end of the runway. As you gently flared through the middle of this window about 20-30 feet up you slipped below 250 KIAS and pulled the emergency gear extension handle all the way out freeing the uplocks. All three gear fell out and back (like an A4) and locked down in about 3 seconds or so. Once on the ground you lowered the nose and pulled the drag chute (same size as an F4's but about one-third of the weight to stop so it worked very well at slowing the Ziper down.) Made a bunch of these with oil failure light, oil quantity gauge failure, or zero pressure showing on the gauge. My own patent routine was as I said, to be able to go off the far end as I began the descent, move the touchdown point to halfway down the runway at the 180, keep moving it back to the 500 foot marker as you approached the end of the runway. They were a lot of fun when you were practicing, somewhat more serious when you'd been sweating engine failure on the way back over the field and on down the slide, waiting for that tell-tale engine vibration that would tell you the bearings were starting to fail. Walt BJ |
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#24
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#25
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Bill,
Perhaps we could quibbe over "successful" but if all but one got out then that would be "successful" (at least as opposed to only one got out) True, unless you are the one who doesn't make it. This is sorta like the stand-up routine from the 1930s that goes, "When you're out of work, it's a recession; when I'm out of work, it's a depression." -- Mike Kanze "All men see in only 16 colors, like Windows default settings. Peach, for example, is a fruit, not a color. Pumpkin is a vegetable. We have no idea what mauve is." - Rules From Guys wrote in message ... On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:44:17 -0800, "Mike Kanze" wrote: ISTR - in the course of the discussion re the EP-3 forced landing in China - some comment to the effect that there has never been a P-3 airframe ditching that did not involve at least some loss of life. Does a "successful" P-3 airframe ditching mean that at least one soul survived? In the North Pacific ditch one person was killed on impact (Tank 5 came up through the deck and pinned him to the overhead). I don't know of casualties in the Persian Gulf incident. Perhaps we could quibbe over "successful" but if all but one got out then that would be "successful" (at least as opposed to only one got out) Another comment I encountered was that the EP-3 community did not carry parachutes for some years, reason being that all them antennae protruding from the fuselage would pretty much shred the first soul out the hatch. I think this changed some time before the VQ-1 crew painted that Chinese F-8 silhouette on their replacement bird. Not being familiar with the EP-3 I can't comment. Bill Kambic |
#26
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A very HIGH high key. Power set at idle? USN single engine jets had a
similar procedure but usually power set for whatever would sustain level flight (never to be moved again until the flare). T-45 is 5,000 AGL, 80% power, gear down, 1/2 flaps, speedbrake out, 175 KIAS. Flaps to full with runway made. Flare to touch down at about 125-135. You can do it at flight idle RPM by keeping the boards in and holding the flaps until past the abeam. You can do it flamed out gear down only. Works out to a 10 degree glideslope and we train to straight in, overhead parallel, overhead perpendicular and abeam (3,000 low key). The airplane is so forgiving, you can alter the parameters considerably and still get to a safe landing (well, maybe not flamed out). I suspect the Zipper was not particularly forgiving under these circumstances. More fun. Stuck throttle approach with high RPM. Shut the engine down prior to the flare. Interesting to watch the studs take this one on. R / John wrote in message ups.com... Flying the F104A with the aging J79-3b engine we practiced 'precautionary patterns' a lot because we still had problems with the oil system. On a nice VFR day with winds not a problem, you started over the 'numbers' at the end of a long runway at 15000 AGL at 260 KIAS, gear up, T/O flaps set, sink rate about 4500fpm. One turn and you were on final, aiming for a 'window' (envision a volleyball net) right over the approach end of the runway. As you gently flared through the middle of this window about 20-30 feet up you slipped below 250 KIAS and pulled the emergency gear extension handle all the way out freeing the uplocks. All three gear fell out and back (like an A4) and locked down in about 3 seconds or so. Once on the ground you lowered the nose and pulled the drag chute (same size as an F4's but about one-third of the weight to stop so it worked very well at slowing the Ziper down.) Made a bunch of these with oil failure light, oil quantity gauge failure, or zero pressure showing on the gauge. My own patent routine was as I said, to be able to go off the far end as I began the descent, move the touchdown point to halfway down the runway at the 180, keep moving it back to the 500 foot marker as you approached the end of the runway. They were a lot of fun when you were practicing, somewhat more serious when you'd been sweating engine failure on the way back over the field and on down the slide, waiting for that tell-tale engine vibration that would tell you the bearings were starting to fail. Walt BJ |
#27
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On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 22:33:04 -0800, "Mike Kanze"
wrote: Bill, Perhaps we could quibbe over "successful" but if all but one got out then that would be "successful" (at least as opposed to only one got out) True, unless you are the one who doesn't make it. Indeed. This is sorta like the stand-up routine from the 1930s that goes, "When you're out of work, it's a recession; when I'm out of work, it's a depression." Ayup. ;-) I don't know about others, but I always felt that if one modern technology that I know very well had failed me (i.e., the aircraft) why would I trust my very valuable butt to another modern technology of which I know little (i.e., the parachute)? ;-) In the Stoof about the worst emergency you could have was a nacelle/wing fire. There are film records of several of these (all from around the boat, IIRC). In all cases the wing burned off not later than 90 seconds after the fire started. So the "word" was that you had to be either in the water or in the silk not later than 60-75 seconds after the fire started. These are not NATOPS numbers (it only says do something "immediately") but were "corporate wisdom" based upon the films mentioned. Since the Stoof was a low altitude aircraft ditching was almost alsways a possibility. On a NATOPS check I was able to descend from just over 4500' to ditching configuration at 100' in 65". That was a "pass." Above that bailout would have been the preferred option. As to the P-3, I just don't know. If there is an emergency with a high probability of structural failure at high altitude then bailout would likely be the preferred option. At lower altitudes a ditch might be the way to go for the reason previously noted. Bill Kambic |
#28
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