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#11
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On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 01:50:29 GMT, "Gary L. Drescher"
wrote: "Arnold Pieper" wrote in message . com... What MS FS can't do is give you the G-force in a 60 degree banked turn (2G), or the visibility we have in the cockpit, or any of the sensory clues we have such as noise, mushiness on the controls in a pre-stall, and things like that. I agree with you regarding G-force and visibility. However, MS FS wind sounds are quite useful in perceiving airspeed, as is the control feel (if you use a force-feedback joystick). I agree with everything except the joystick. I use a FF joystick and it is not realistic in simulating the changes in force with changes in speed, or the mush just prior to stall. OTOH, I've found it to be quite realistic in most, but not all other respects. As a training supplement I think it has some good possibilities. I base that on about 1300 hours with over a 1000 in high performance/complex/retract singles. I've put about a 1000 hours on this plane in the last 10 years. www.rogerhalstead.com/833pics.htm and I'm building a real hotrod if I ever get it finished. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) --Gary |
#12
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On 13 Nov 2003 01:26:16 -0800, mike popken wrote:
Microsof FS is an eye candy entertainment GAME. Got that word the:: G A M E!!!!!!!! So what? -- Paul. mailtoaulh_logicsquad_net (make the obvious substitutions) |
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#15
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mike popken wrote: The following was the original comment in this thread: "See Wired magazine: http://www.wired.com/news/technology...w=wn_tophead_6 People have criticized me in the past for suggesting that someone could learn much of the skills of piloting with FS, but it seems that I'm in good company." ============== If the poster is suggesting a wanna-be pilot could gain some insight into ATC, he would be right. And ditto for a little background on using VOR navigation, and with fs2004, the Garmin GPS. I would agree. It is also helpful for a wanna-be pilot to experience how fast things happen when you fly, how mentally quick one must be in order to safely fly a plane. Here I agree again, but as one who has flown real planes, I cound not disagree more if the poster is suggesting Microsoft simulator planes fly like the REAL THING. Microsof FS is an eye candy entertainment GAME. Got that word the:: G A M E!!!!!!!! That's all it is, an eye candy game, to entertain people, to keep their minds off the sewer society we are (and have) slid off into, to keep people preoccupied with utter nonsense so they won't have time to write or call their congressmen about what a mess the world is becoming, so they won't have time to organize war demonstrations, etc. That is the only purpose of this product. MS airplaines do NOT even remotely fly like the real thing, and all one need do to prove it for themselves is go fly a real plane and you'll see for yourself. Then if you still believe MS simulator planes fly like the real thing, then you are probably a devoute religious person that belives all those wierd stories about God destroying His own creations, causing fire n brimstone, hell, devils, etc. And just think, there are a couple billion people who believe all this crap, so it does not surprise me that millions of Flt Sim fans believe Microsoft's simulator planes fly like the real thing. BETWEEN EVERY MAN AND REALITY LIE HIS MOST CHERISHED ILLUSIONS. M.P. Hall Hope this helps Mike Hmmm. It also could be said that his/her most cherished 'learning experiences' are decidedly in that mix! It's always been my view that the flight simulators PER SE are an excellent 'adjunct' to the real McCoy and I also believe that this fact has been well established! Neither the military nor the civilian ATP brethren [et al] are strangers to the simulator although I'd be the first to admit the obvious differences between the desk sim and the multi-legged, multi-million dollar hydraulic varieties. However, they both serve a purpose! Instruction and direct practical applications that enhances the real thing! Let's consider a few things: Even on the hydraulic legged multi-million dollar sims..what is THE essential purpose? Think about it! Is the thing being used to 'teach' ATP types how to fly? Hardly, because it's de facto assumed that the ATP taking his/her REQUIRED sim training can fly and thus the bottom line becomes the adjunct recurrent training in emergency procedures! This is indeed a beneficial control environment that can hurl all manner of 'emergencies' at the sim pilot and hence train and be aware of [Murphy's Law inclusive] for the expected reaction(s) should it occur in the real thing! It works! Now...more practical and every day stuff...how many of us have ever needed or used or hey, rented [Sidebar: Don't ask! My Windstar...profuse white smoke, water out of the exhaust...yep...blown head gaskets and a $1600 tab for the fix! :-( ...] ----anyway, a vehicle 'other' than our own and what happens...the fumbling...where is everything? From the door latch to the lights to the wipers to the heater/AC controls to whatever and you-name-it. Get my drift? Familiarity of the controls and gauges! Simplistic example perhaps but modify same in re the real thing versus the easily applicable electronic counterparts on the sim! The sim can duplicate same very nicely and, as a bonus, can be set to just as UNFORGIVING as the real thing! This too..the matter of adjunct confidence. Ohhh yes. What, are those ads in the real McCoy av magazines for commo training or, indeed, SIM training [other than the MSFS series] any more or less sophisticated that what we can get from the MSFS series? Last time I looked the multi-thousand 'fancy' sim stuff was just as DESK-FIXED, if you will, as the MSFS varieties! This too, am I supposed to suddenly be a better sim or real McCoy pilot if I use a $850 sim yoke versus a $100 CH ABS material yoke? Think about it! In my view, anything that serves as a reasonable learning experience 'adjunct' to the real thing only serves to enhance overall av training and savvy! It lastly can not be denied that the level of flight sim sophistication has risen 'dramatically' from the days of Bruce Artwick and machines to run the sims that are now considered literal dinosaurs! Now we've reached the point where 'actual' electronic reproduction of 'actual' real thing flight avionics is a reality....and with the blessings and permissions of the manufacturers because, hey, it's good business! Do you not think that Garmin ET AL 'welcomes' their avionics as models for flight sim use? It only helps them commercially while concurrently serving as the adjunct to learn the proper function of the avionics in question! It's no secret that some GA types have equipment in the real McCoy that they don't necessarily savvy 100% ....as they should...but they don't! Sim training can help that too. Need I mention additional ad hoc SIM practice with avoiding 'needle chasing' or simply shooting precision landings. I can't see where it hurts or detracts from the real thing. And finally---bottom line--- in the absence of the BIG bucks for one's own plane and the associated BIG costs to maintain same or those high rental fees, hey, for some folks, the sim is the closest 'feasible' reality due to pure economics! What's the old joke or indeed av enthusiast [for the real thong] lament, to wit, ".... my family has a very bad habit...they like to eat!" ;-) Doc Tony [Cessna 150/152/172 vintage] |
#16
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Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo wrote: mike popken wrote: The following was the original comment in this thread: "See Wired magazine: http://www.wired.com/news/technology...w=wn_tophead_6 People have criticized me in the past for suggesting that someone could learn much of the skills of piloting with FS, but it seems that I'm in good company." ============== If the poster is suggesting a wanna-be pilot could gain some insight into ATC, he would be right. And ditto for a little background on using VOR navigation, and with fs2004, the Garmin GPS. I would agree. It is also helpful for a wanna-be pilot to experience how fast things happen when you fly, how mentally quick one must be in order to safely fly a plane. Here I agree again, but as one who has flown real planes, I cound not disagree more if the poster is suggesting Microsoft simulator planes fly like the REAL THING. Microsof FS is an eye candy entertainment GAME. Got that word the:: G A M E!!!!!!!! That's all it is, an eye candy game, to entertain people, to keep their minds off the sewer society we are (and have) slid off into, to keep people preoccupied with utter nonsense so they won't have time to write or call their congressmen about what a mess the world is becoming, so they won't have time to organize war demonstrations, etc. That is the only purpose of this product. MS airplaines do NOT even remotely fly like the real thing, and all one need do to prove it for themselves is go fly a real plane and you'll see for yourself. Then if you still believe MS simulator planes fly like the real thing, then you are probably a devoute religious person that belives all those wierd stories about God destroying His own creations, causing fire n brimstone, hell, devils, etc. And just think, there are a couple billion people who believe all this crap, so it does not surprise me that millions of Flt Sim fans believe Microsoft's simulator planes fly like the real thing. BETWEEN EVERY MAN AND REALITY LIE HIS MOST CHERISHED ILLUSIONS. M.P. Hall Hope this helps Mike Hmmm. It also could be said that his/her most cherished 'learning experiences' are decidedly in that mix! It's always been my view that the flight simulators PER SE are an excellent 'adjunct' to the real McCoy and I also believe that this fact has been well established! Neither the military nor the civilian ATP brethren [et al] are strangers to the simulator although I'd be the first to admit the obvious differences between the desk sim and the multi-legged, multi-million dollar hydraulic varieties. However, they both serve a purpose! Instruction and direct practical applications that enhances the real thing! Let's consider a few things: Even on the hydraulic legged multi-million dollar sims..what is THE essential purpose? Think about it! Is the thing being used to 'teach' ATP types how to fly? Hardly, because it's de facto assumed that the ATP taking his/her REQUIRED sim training can fly and thus the bottom line becomes the adjunct recurrent training in emergency procedures! This is indeed a beneficial control environment that can hurl all manner of 'emergencies' at the sim pilot and hence train and be aware of [Murphy's Law inclusive] for the expected reaction(s) should it occur in the real thing! It works! Now...more practical and every day stuff...how many of us have ever needed or used or hey, rented [Sidebar: Don't ask! My Windstar...profuse white smoke, water out of the exhaust...yep...blown head gaskets and a $1600 tab for the fix! :-( ...] ----anyway, a vehicle 'other' than our own and what happens...the fumbling...where is everything? From the door latch to the lights to the wipers to the heater/AC controls to whatever and you-name-it. Get my drift? Familiarity of the controls and gauges! Simplistic example perhaps but modify same in re the real thing versus the easily applicable electronic counterparts on the sim! The sim can duplicate same very nicely and, as a bonus, can be set to just as UNFORGIVING as the real thing! This too..the matter of adjunct confidence. Ohhh yes. What, are those ads in the real McCoy av magazines for commo training or, indeed, SIM training [other than the MSFS series] any more or less sophisticated that what we can get from the MSFS series? Last time I looked the multi-thousand 'fancy' sim stuff was just as DESK-FIXED, if you will, as the MSFS varieties! This too, am I supposed to suddenly be a better sim or real McCoy pilot if I use a $850 sim yoke versus a $100 CH ABS material yoke? Think about it! In my view, anything that serves as a reasonable learning experience 'adjunct' to the real thing only serves to enhance overall av training and savvy! It lastly can not be denied that the level of flight sim sophistication has risen 'dramatically' from the days of Bruce Artwick and machines to run the sims that are now considered literal dinosaurs! Now we've reached the point where 'actual' electronic reproduction of 'actual' real thing flight avionics is a reality....and with the blessings and permissions of the manufacturers because, hey, it's good business! Do you not think that Garmin ET AL 'welcomes' their avionics as models for flight sim use? It only helps them commercially while concurrently serving as the adjunct to learn the proper function of the avionics in question! It's no secret that some GA types have equipment in the real McCoy that they don't necessarily savvy 100% ....as they should...but they don't! Sim training can help that too. Need I mention additional ad hoc SIM practice with avoiding 'needle chasing' or simply shooting precision landings. I can't see where it hurts or detracts from the real thing. And finally---bottom line--- in the absence of the BIG bucks for one's own plane and the associated BIG costs to maintain same or those high rental fees, hey, for some folks, the sim is the closest 'feasible' reality due to pure economics! What's the old joke or indeed av enthusiast [for the real thong] lament, Whoops! Did I really type that real 'thong' [!] typo? Hmmmm. Let's change that quickly to 'real THING'. Done. What's that? So I was looking at the Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition... the ladies looked, shall we say, 'revealing' in their outfits ... what, a problem? ;-) to wit, ".... my family has a very bad habit...they like to eat!" ;-) Doc Tony [Cessna 150/152/172 vintage] |
#17
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Yeah they like to eat, and my wife likes to buy shoes too! I know
I can't afford to buy an airplane that will carry THAT kind of a payload! (shoes are heavy!) On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:33:53 -0500, "Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo" wrote: Need I mention additional ad hoc SIM practice with avoiding 'needle chasing' or simply shooting precision landings. I can't see where it hurts or detracts from the real thing. And finally---bottom line--- in the absence of the BIG bucks for one's own plane and the associated BIG costs to maintain same or those high rental fees, hey, for some folks, the sim is the closest 'feasible' reality due to pure economics! What's the old joke or indeed av enthusiast [for the real thong] lament, to wit, ".... my family has a very bad habit...they like to eat!" ;-) Doc Tony [Cessna 150/152/172 vintage] |
#18
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""David G. Bell"" wrote in message .. . On Thursday, in article bmXsb.333$%b2.8@lakeread05 "mrhct" wrote: A couple of years ago, my wife's boss's husband called to see if I wanted to fly up to N.H. with him for lunch. I'd been doing the F.S. deal since MS98 so I jumped at the chance. I was amazed when I got in the cockpit of the rented 172. I knew what everything was. Tom was using a handheld Garmin GPS, a really neat unit. I asked why he wasn't using the installed GPS. He said he really didn't know how it worked, but I did. During the flight up I shot radials. He asked how the hell I knew all this stuff, I'd never been in a plane before, I'm sure you all know the answer. So on the flight home, I took the controls during climbout, flew the radials while he watched on his Garmin, and flew the approach to the thresh hold. He was shocked and so was I. Was it the same as F.S.and vice versa? No way. Could I have done what I did without F.S.? No way. If he had become ill during our flights could I have kept us from crashing? More than likely! And no it's not a game! My own suspicion is that one of the big differences is that FS experience tends to discourage head movement. It's certainly a factor in such as CFS, and the other flight combat products which try for realism. Good IFR training for the VFR pilot who ventures into IMC. Dashi |
#19
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George Lewis wrote: Yeah they like to eat, and my wife likes to buy shoes too! I know I can't afford to buy an airplane that will carry THAT kind of a payload! (shoes are heavy!) ;-) ... Well, I still recall my wife saying some moons ago something along the lines of ... ".... why would you want to have a hand-held radio that 'only' gets the air band?" Hey! Maybe our friends at Sporty's heard her and 'that' is why, inter alia, they came out with their air band hand-held that 'also' gets AM/FM but then will cut to the action when it's show time in the air! This way, the old line... ehhhh ....make that 'reasoning' to one's wife can be the benefits of a 'multi-band' hand-held for those emergency times when house power is lost in re storms or whatever cause ... or any related excuse that is handy...and at least plausible! ;-) Doc Tony ;-) Of course, selling the purchase of a classic [read: old] C-172 or Piper 'cousin' so to speak becomes somewhat more difficult! But then, the pitch becomes the proverbial duck soup thing when you announce you'll hold on the real McCoy for practical [read: economic] reasons and for a mere fraction of what a decent set of plugs would cost [forget the labor charge for installation!] on the real thing, hey, there's this great new sim..... ! Cue the 'do the math' bit! ;-) On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:33:53 -0500, "Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo" wrote: Need I mention additional ad hoc SIM practice with avoiding 'needle chasing' or simply shooting precision landings. I can't see where it hurts or detracts from the real thing. And finally---bottom line--- in the absence of the BIG bucks for one's own plane and the associated BIG costs to maintain same or those high rental fees, hey, for some folks, the sim is the closest 'feasible' reality due to pure economics! What's the old joke or indeed av enthusiast [for the real thong] lament, to wit, ".... my family has a very bad habit...they like to eat!" ;-) Doc Tony [Cessna 150/152/172 vintage] |
#20
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mike popken wrote:
============== long tirate snipped =============== Jeezz Mike, cut back on the coffee or double up the med's......... (;-)) Cheers'n beers.. [_]) Don |
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