My Ground Loop

I have heard it said that there are two types of tailwheel pilots: those
that have ground looped and those that will. A week ago, I graduated from
the latter category into the former category. There was no shirt ripping
ceremony for this milestone. Fortunately, there was also no torn flesh or
bent metal. I post the story here so others can share my lessons learned.

The background: My Piper PA-16 Clipper has been down since April for an
engine overhaul (a story in itself). I had flown the plane about three hours
since the overhaul, including four landings, all into a strong wind directly
down the runway. I took some advice to change my landing technique and carry
some power through the flare instead of cutting power as soon as I had the
runway made. This had worked pretty well for those four landings. I needed
to fly the airplane to an airport near my parent's in order to store it in
my father's hangar for the winter. That airport has an East/West runway, and
we had been having strong Southerly winds lately, so I waited for a day with
more favorable winds to make the trip. Finally, the winds were 15 mph from
the west, so I went for it. The airport has a 2600 ft asphalt runway with
obstuctions at each end. My usual airstrip is 1800 ft with obstructions, so
I didn't consider the runway marginal. My 9 yr old son wanted to come along
since he hadn't had a chance to fly with me all year.

The sequence: The ceiling was lowering as we got closer. It wasn't quite bad
enough to turn around, but I was glad to get to the destination. Some of my
worst landings have come with the "glad to finally be here" mindset, which
should have been a warning. I didn't get slowed to pattern airspeed until
downwind leg. On final, I noticed I was about 10 mph faster than target and
made a mental note to get the speed down. About the same time, I noticed
that I had a significant crab angle indicating a crosswind from the left. I
focused my attention on setting up a slip to correct for the crosswind. I
made a wheel landing close to the intended spot, left wheel first. So far,
so good. I focused my attention on keeping it pointed straight and waited to
start braking until my right wheel came down, which seemed to take longer
than expected. I also decided that I needed to get the tailwheel down so I
would have tailwheel steering to help with the crosswind. When I started to
brake, the plane got squirelly in a hurry. Some dancing on the pedals kept
it on the pavement. Suddenly, I realized that I might not have space to get
stopped before the end of the runway. Just off that end of the runway is a
busy road. I decided to take my chances with the weeds off the left side of
the runway. I picked a spot between two runway lights and headed for the
side. It turned much sharper than I would have chosen and I ended up going
between a different set of runway lights than planned. As I slowed down in
the weeds, I gave it some throttle to avoid coming to a stop and steered
back onto the runway.

My son thought the whole thing was pretty cool and loves to tell everyone we
know all about it. I hated to end my flying season with a landing like that,
but there was no way I was going around the pattern until I had a chance to
thoroughly inspect for any damage. The only things I found out of place were
some weeds in places that weeds don't grow.

This wasn't the usual "loss of directional control" ground loop scenario,
although directional control was marginal at points. I classify it as a
ground loop because once I started toward the edge of the runway, the turn
accelerated on its own. When I replay the sequence in my head, I don't have
any trouble coming up with a list of mistakes I made along the way:
1) I should have anticipated the crosswind and not been surprised by it on
final. The wind was 250 at 15mph which is not exactly west. Runway 29 is not
exactly west either. Put those together and there is a pretty good crosswind
component. I had computed the crosswind component with wishful thinking as
opposed to trigonometry.
2) Obviously, airspeed control was an issue. I wasn't at pattern speed
before entering the pattern and I never quite caught up. After I noticed the
speed was high on final, I got distracted by the crosswind and didn't get it
corrected.
3) Did I pull the power to idle after touchdown? I don't specifically
remember doing that. It is such an automatic thing that I might not
specifically remember it. The fact that the plane did not slow down like it
usually would makes me suspicious that I was still carrying some power.
Since I had to jockey the throttle around to get out of the weeds, I
couldn't look at the tach afterwards to tell.
4) I didn't recognize the potential for an overrun in time to make a
go-around. Once I touched down at the correct point and knew the runway was
long enough, I presumed I was ok. Since it was a wheel landing, touching
down did not imply normal touchdown speed. I was too focused on directional
control to notice the speed issue in a timely manner.

This incident reminds me of the trouble I had with crosswind landings as a
student pilot. I never screwed up the crosswind correction itself, but it
seemed to distract me from something else and I would botch the landing some
other way.

The only thing I have found to pat myself on the back for is the fact that I
never allowed myself to become a passenger. I kept flying the airplane until
I got it stopped on the runway (facing the wrong way and with a load of
weeds, but on the runway).

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:34:12 -0500, "Reid & Julie Baldwin"
wrote:

I took some advice to change my landing technique and carry
some power through the flare instead of cutting power as soon as I had the
runway made.


Thanks for the story. I hope you're re-thinking the above advice at
this point. Carrying power into the flare isn't necessary, extends
your landing distance, and can get you in trouble as you found out.
Also in x-wind conditions like you describe, a three point landing is
a better idea in my opinion. You talked about wanting to get the tail
wheel down so you had steering. If you did a full stall landing, you
would have had the controllability you were looking for as soon as you
touched the ground, as well as having better control of the airplane
while it was flying. You also would have been slower than what's
needed for a wheel landing which may have allowed you to avoid the
problems you had completely.

It's great you stuck with it and I'm glad it all worked out. Hope its
a mild winter so you get to exercise the bird some.

z

"zatatime" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:34:12 -0500, "Reid & Julie Baldwin"
wrote:

I took some advice to change my landing technique and carry
some power through the flare instead of cutting power as soon as I had the
runway made.


Thanks for the story. I hope you're re-thinking the above advice at
this point. Carrying power into the flare isn't necessary, extends
your landing distance, and can get you in trouble as you found out.
Also in x-wind conditions like you describe, a three point landing is
a better idea in my opinion. You talked about wanting to get the tail
wheel down so you had steering. If you did a full stall landing, you
would have had the controllability you were looking for as soon as you
touched the ground, as well as having better control of the airplane
while it was flying. You also would have been slower than what's
needed for a wheel landing which may have allowed you to avoid the
problems you had completely.

It's great you stuck with it and I'm glad it all worked out. Hope its
a mild winter so you get to exercise the bird some.

z


I think I see the three point vs. wheelie thread coming around again, which
is ok by me as it is usually a good one.

I just did a Goggle groups search on +"three point" +wheel and got 2,700
hits. The fourth hit listed was

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.av...46c09d7c32c538

which was a post by our once frequent poster highflyer which pretty much
said everything I would want to say but better than I would. He even
comments on holding a bit of power into the flair.

I will comment that none of my better tailwheel instructors were fans of
wheel landings (for light aircraft) and the best of them refused to teach
wheelies at all. They agreed that wheelies usually meant too fast, with too
much energy, needing too much rollout and with too little authority. The
tail has to come down sooner or later, and a pilot's best friend is a firmly
planted steerable tailwheel.

The only time I have ever felt that I was just along for the ride was on my
second (ever) solo (no instructor in backseat = more forward CG) landing
(PA18) where I got caught with full flaps (shadowed rudder) and the
tailwheel not fully planted. A blast of power helped and I did not ground
loop but did talk with alligators, and had to explain how I got mud on the
underside of the wings (no wheel pants).

Happy landings,

On 2005-11-29, Private wrote:
I think I see the three point vs. wheelie thread coming around again, which
is ok by me as it is usually a good one.

My take on it from plenty of time with light taildraggers such as the
Cessna 140 is that wheel landings are best for gusty *headwinds*, where
there is a chance that after touching down and starting to slow in the
3-point attitude, a strong gust will make you airborne again (and when
the gust ends, without proper flying speed, leading to more trouble).
You can 'stick it on' and with the low angle of attack, the gusts won't
get you airborne again. Once you are slowed enough that the gusts can't
make the plane airborne, you land the tail.

Other than that, I always use 3-point landings.

A steerable tailwheel can be both a blessing and a curse in a strong
crosswind - just before you touch down in a strong crosswind, the
tailwheel will *not* be centred because you'll have a bootful of rudder.
This can result in a swerve if you're not ready for it, and you can't
really take the rudder out... On the other hand, the Auster I fly from
time to time has a free castoring tailwheel and is almost impossible to
taxi on a hard surface in a quartering tailwind - the only steering you
have then is the brakes, and those tiny little drum brakes are really
awful. Given the choice I'd much rather have a steerable tailwheel.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 05:42:14 GMT, "Private"
wrote:

I will comment that none of my better tailwheel instructors were fans of
wheel landings (for light aircraft) and the best of them refused to teach
wheelies at all.

Gosh, why do they even bother to teach flying at all?

If flying rates a 5 in the scheme of things, taildragger flying rates
7.5 and wheelies a 10.

When I have to do a stall-down landing, I feel as dejected and
worthless as if my father had taken the car away from me.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

"Private" wrote in message
news:WSRif.649892$tl2.12997@pd7tw3no...

"zatatime" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:34:12 -0500, "Reid & Julie Baldwin"
wrote:

I took some advice to change my landing technique and carry
some power through the flare instead of cutting power as soon as I had
the
runway made.


Thanks for the story. I hope you're re-thinking the above advice at
this point. Carrying power into the flare isn't necessary, extends
your landing distance, and can get you in trouble as you found out.
Also in x-wind conditions like you describe, a three point landing is
a better idea in my opinion. You talked about wanting to get the tail

Depends on the airplane, depends on the brakes.



I think I see the three point vs. wheelie thread coming around again,
which is ok by me as it is usually a good one.

Ok, here we go!

I will comment that none of my better tailwheel instructors were fans of
wheel landings (for light aircraft) and the best of them refused to teach
wheelies at all. They agreed that wheelies usually meant too fast, with
too much energy, needing too much rollout and with too little authority.
The tail has to come down sooner or later, and a pilot's best friend is a
firmly planted steerable tailwheel.

Depending on the airplane, and depending on the brakes, this is either 100%
Gospel or 100% B.S. or somewhere inbetween.

I learned to fly in a C-120 with Cleveland toe brakes - and nearly always
did wheelies because they were so much easier and I had so much more control
before and after touchdown.

I've put it into narrow paved strips with crosswinds strong enough to make
the windsock look like it was made of iron.
The trick was to come down hot and get the mains solidly planted on the
ground. None of that floating around at low speeds with mushy controls
trying to not get blown off the runway stuff. Then, with the mains planted
(a good nudge forward on the wheel, eh?) you had all the control you could
ever want with the toe brakes. Set the tail down whenever - it's not like
the tailwheel had enough "power" to keep things straight on a blustery day
anyhow.

Too much rollout? Nah. ALWAYS made the first turn off beause I never found
myself floating down the runway waiting for a three point to happen. :-)

I was told, by a source that I consider reliable, that the way to make the
absolute shortest landing possible in a DC-3 is to wheel it on, push the
wheel _way_ forward to get the tail up and put a lot of force on the mains
so they don't lock up when you stand on the brakes, and to generate lots of
drag from the wing generating "negitive" lift. Never had a chance to try it
myself though :-(


The only time I have ever felt that I was just along for the ride was on
my second (ever) solo (no instructor in backseat = more forward CG)
landing (PA18) where I got caught with full flaps (shadowed rudder) and
the tailwheel not fully planted. A blast of power helped and I did not
ground loop but did talk with alligators, and had to explain how I got mud
on the underside of the wings (no wheel pants).

Different airplane, different brakes.

YMMV.

--
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
The Sea Hawk At WowWay D0t Com

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:09:02 -0500, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea
Hawk at wowway d0t com wrote:

Depends on the airplane, depends on the brakes.


Yep. This is about a Clipper.

z

Reid & Julie Baldwin wrote:
I have heard it said that there are two types of tailwheel pilots: those
that have ground looped and those that will. A week ago, I graduated from
the latter category into the former category. There was no shirt ripping
ceremony for this milestone. Fortunately, there was also no torn flesh or
bent metal. I post the story here so others can share my lessons learned.

***********************
It appears you learned more in that experience than 15 years of ho-hum
flying and take offs/landings! Good for you that you learned so much
from it. I doubt you'll repeat the mistakes.
Using your power and wheel landings is nearly a whole new art form
these days but is a technique we used in crop dusting for years and
seldom ever went much past a short field landing roll. For us, time was
money and we didn't make any sitting on the ground!
If you can find an old ag pilot who is also a CFI, or is willing to fly
with you and try to show you some of the tricks that we learn in
countless landings it would be worthwhile.
You certainly sound like a mature and level headed pilot so I'm sure
you have already given something similar some good thought?
Geeez I haven't flown a Clipper since...hmmm lemme see now.....must be
close to 40 years or so? 1967-68?
Cheers and Happy Holidays
Ol Shy & Bashful

The background: My Piper PA-16 Clipper has been down since April for an
engine overhaul (a story in itself). I had flown the plane about three hours
since the overhaul, including four landings, all into a strong wind directly
down the runway. I took some advice to change my landing technique and carry
some power through the flare instead of cutting power as soon as I had the
runway made. This had worked pretty well for those four landings. I needed
to fly the airplane to an airport near my parent's in order to store it in
my father's hangar for the winter. That airport has an East/West runway, and
we had been having strong Southerly winds lately, so I waited for a day with
more favorable winds to make the trip. Finally, the winds were 15 mph from
the west, so I went for it. The airport has a 2600 ft asphalt runway with
obstuctions at each end. My usual airstrip is 1800 ft with obstructions, so
I didn't consider the runway marginal. My 9 yr old son wanted to come along
since he hadn't had a chance to fly with me all year.

The sequence: The ceiling was lowering as we got closer. It wasn't quite bad
enough to turn around, but I was glad to get to the destination. Some of my
worst landings have come with the "glad to finally be here" mindset, which
should have been a warning. I didn't get slowed to pattern airspeed until
downwind leg. On final, I noticed I was about 10 mph faster than target and
made a mental note to get the speed down. About the same time, I noticed
that I had a significant crab angle indicating a crosswind from the left. I
focused my attention on setting up a slip to correct for the crosswind. I
made a wheel landing close to the intended spot, left wheel first. So far,
so good. I focused my attention on keeping it pointed straight and waited to
start braking until my right wheel came down, which seemed to take longer
than expected. I also decided that I needed to get the tailwheel down so I
would have tailwheel steering to help with the crosswind. When I started to
brake, the plane got squirelly in a hurry. Some dancing on the pedals kept
it on the pavement. Suddenly, I realized that I might not have space to get
stopped before the end of the runway. Just off that end of the runway is a
busy road. I decided to take my chances with the weeds off the left side of
the runway. I picked a spot between two runway lights and headed for the
side. It turned much sharper than I would have chosen and I ended up going
between a different set of runway lights than planned. As I slowed down in
the weeds, I gave it some throttle to avoid coming to a stop and steered
back onto the runway.

My son thought the whole thing was pretty cool and loves to tell everyone we
know all about it. I hated to end my flying season with a landing like that,
but there was no way I was going around the pattern until I had a chance to
thoroughly inspect for any damage. The only things I found out of place were
some weeds in places that weeds don't grow.

This wasn't the usual "loss of directional control" ground loop scenario,
although directional control was marginal at points. I classify it as a
ground loop because once I started toward the edge of the runway, the turn
accelerated on its own. When I replay the sequence in my head, I don't have
any trouble coming up with a list of mistakes I made along the way:
1) I should have anticipated the crosswind and not been surprised by it on
final. The wind was 250 at 15mph which is not exactly west. Runway 29 is not
exactly west either. Put those together and there is a pretty good crosswind
component. I had computed the crosswind component with wishful thinking as
opposed to trigonometry.
2) Obviously, airspeed control was an issue. I wasn't at pattern speed
before entering the pattern and I never quite caught up. After I noticed the
speed was high on final, I got distracted by the crosswind and didn't get it
corrected.
3) Did I pull the power to idle after touchdown? I don't specifically
remember doing that. It is such an automatic thing that I might not
specifically remember it. The fact that the plane did not slow down like it
usually would makes me suspicious that I was still carrying some power.
Since I had to jockey the throttle around to get out of the weeds, I
couldn't look at the tach afterwards to tell.
4) I didn't recognize the potential for an overrun in time to make a
go-around. Once I touched down at the correct point and knew the runway was
long enough, I presumed I was ok. Since it was a wheel landing, touching
down did not imply normal touchdown speed. I was too focused on directional
control to notice the speed issue in a timely manner.

This incident reminds me of the trouble I had with crosswind landings as a
student pilot. I never screwed up the crosswind correction itself, but it
seemed to distract me from something else and I would botch the landing some
other way.

The only thing I have found to pat myself on the back for is the fact that I
never allowed myself to become a passenger. I kept flying the airplane until
I got it stopped on the runway (facing the wrong way and with a load of
weeds, but on the runway).

I've probably mentioned this before, but my first "trip into the weeds" was
my graduation when getting my tailwheel endorsement from our long time ag
pilot friend and mentor.

He'd been putting me in ever increasing difficult situations with the
SuperCub, culminating with severe crosswind landings... and I mean severe.
29 knots 90 degrees to the runway. Most people couldn't believe we were out
in those winds, but I had several witnesses. If you think your primary
instructor ever told you to use "more right rudder" you should have heard my
instructor scream about getting that wing down and to plant that wheel on
the ground... all the rudder and brake you need, then get this thing pointed
into the wind as we slow to a stop!! 10 degrees F out, 29knot winds, and I
was sweating so bad I wished I'd left my coat at home.

Well... after two or three successful landings, it was off to the races.
Didn't get the upwind wing low enough, too much speed, not enough rudder,
not enough toe brake, a milli-second later we weather veined into the wind
and exited the runway between two runway lights. 4" of snow helped slow us
down and I got it going straight again, then hit the power and we were back
in the air after a bit. After we came around and landed on an upwind
runway, we talked over what happened and he told me that I'd now seen most
things that can happen when flying a taildragger so he'd sign me off. We
then took off for home, climbed up to 3000 feet, did some slow flight and he
let me fly backwards for the first time.

The next day I got some pretty good ribbing from my friends who'd seen the
huge plume of snow and a little red and white SuperCub emerge from the cloud
in a 45 degree crab. They said it looked like something out of a crazy
movie and the airport manager who'd seen the tracks wondered if somebody
with an ATV had been out playing in the snow.

Jim

wrote

If you can find an old ag pilot who is also a CFI, or is willing to fly
with you and try to show you some of the tricks that we learn in
countless landings it would be worthwhile.
You certainly sound like a mature and level headed pilot so I'm sure
you have already given something similar some good thought?
Geeez I haven't flown a Clipper since...hmmm lemme see now.....must be
close to 40 years or so? 1967-68?
Cheers and Happy Holidays

Geez, that is as shameless an attempt to get a ride in someone's airplane as
I have ever heard!

That is what it is, isn't it? g
--
Jim in NC