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Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam



 
 
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  #591  
Old July 22nd 04, 08:57 AM
Fred the Red Shirt
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Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
On 18 Jul 2004 22:40:58 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

(B2431) wrote in message ...

The fact remains kerry accused us of all being involved with or have knowledge
of war crimes.


I disagree. That is a gross distortion of the facts, just like the
way neocons used Sherman's words form a protion of one of his letters
to 'prove' that he had confessed to war crimes.

... If what he said was true he had an obligation to take it public. He
not ONCE said the majority of vets served honourably.


Perhaps someone should point that out to him and ask him to address that.

Somehow I don't think it would satisfy you if he did, even if he had
done so back then.

What Kerry said was clearly figurative speech, just like when I say
we Americans are responsible for the wrongdoing that America does
anywhere in the world today?


Here's what Kerry said (again!) on Meet the Press:

"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes,
yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other
soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire
zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre
machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our
only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy
missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the
laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and
all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by
the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe
that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire
zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid
strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same
letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals."

-- John Kerry, on NBC's "Meet the Press" April 18, 1971

Does that sound allegorical or less than a literal admission of war
crimes?


No, this time you picked out a quote wherein Kerry referred to
specific
activities. Read again:

"I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other
soldiers"

NOWHERE in the paragraph you just quoted doe he accuse you of all
being involved with or have knowledge of war crimes.


I'm not sure if I should question your competency or your honesty
but something is not right.



I've once gone through the litany and challenged that free fire zones,
harrassment, interdiction, .50 cal, search-and-destroy, air raids, etc
are NOT in any way violations of the Geneva Convention.


And I addressed those issue in this thread where you or someone
else discussed them. So could you pick it up there, if you wish
to continue?


I challenged Kerry's assertion regarding .50 cal as "our only weapon
against people" comparing it to his narrative of one of his BS awards
indicating he had an M-16 which jammed so he picked up another M-16 in
the boat.


The sentence is pretty awkward. I think one could honestly parse
it as 'there were times when conducting harrassment and interdiction
fire that the 50 cal was the only weapon we used.'

'were our only weapon' by itself is of course literally as well as
gramatically incorrect. 'We' (America) literally had tanks and
aircraft and all sorts of other weapons. Heck, we had nuclear
weapons too, just not in Vietnam.

Do you suppose that, given the sentence is both ungrammatical and
blindingly obviously literally incorrect he might have mispoken?

Just because he doesn't talk like Bush doesn't mean he never screws
up.


Did I just stab you in the back?


And here's from Kerry's Senate testimony (under oath):

"I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that
several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans
testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not
isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the
full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible
to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions
in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their
experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this
country, in a sense, made them do.


And here where he does use 'all' he is clearly speaking generally.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off
ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies,
randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of
Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks,


And here, of course, he is clearly referring to specific anecdotes.


and
generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the
normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which
is done by the applied bombing power of this country."


And here of course, he is speaking generally again.


Now Mr Rasimus, I gather from your writing that you are a literate
man of at least moderate intelligence. You have indicated that
you are older than myself, that you work for the Smithsonian and
you read the Washington Times. Few people outside of the DC
area (and not a whole lot there either) read the Times so I figure
you live in the DC area.

I would guess that over the years you have heard at least as much
Senate 'testimony' as I have. You must have listened on one or
more occasion when people 'testified' by reading prepared speeches
and were then 'questioned' by Senators whose questions were themselves
also speeches.

So please, don't expect me to believe that you hope that when
someone testifies befor the Senate they are speaking literally.
You know better. Don't expect me to believe that you cannot tell
when a speaker shifts between general statements to specific
anecdotes and back again.

You're smart enough, and you're experienced enough. It is odd that
you do not seem to have expected others in the newsgroup to be
similarly endowed with those attributes.



It certainly sounds like LITERAL testimony. Of course, the fact that
his "150 honorably discharged....etc" veterans turned out to not be so
makes it questionable, but let's give John the benefit of the doubt
that he didn't know it at the time.


I appreciate that last sentence was written in an effort to be fair.
But I still ask you to show some evidence that the 'testimony' of
the 'Winter Soldiers' was debunked.

Lots of people make that claim.

--

FF
Ads
  #593  
Old July 22nd 04, 10:15 AM
Brett
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"Fred the peabrained moron" wrote:
"Brett" wrote in message

...
"Fred the peabrained moron" wrote
"Brett" wrote in message

...
"George Z. Bush" wrote:

... in my day the law didn't

require
you to register if you had volunteered and were waiting for your

reporting date.


It did,


You sure about htat?


Well since you eliminated what the response was given to I'm sure my
response to the comment originally presented that you cut away was

correct.

Easily corrected:

George Z. Bush" wrote:
"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On 19 Jul 2004 08:57:38 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote:

I turned 18 in 1973. My draft lottery number was somewhere between
183 and 187. But no one was drafted from my year, the first such
year since the start of the Vietnam era draft.


I turned 18 in 1973 also. I asked my recruiter if I should register

and he
said not to worry about it.

Walt

You recruiter told you to break the law and you did? It becomes
clearer with each posting why think the way you do.


Unless they changed the law back in the 70s, in my day the law
didn't require you to registerin my day the law didn't require
you to register if you had volunteered and were waiting for your
reporting date.



It did, you didn't have to register between 1975 until 1980, when Jimmy
Carter got concerned about the Soviet's in Afghanistan.

*******

Now, are you sure that the law did require Walt to register for the draft
after he had volunteered and was waiting for his reporting date?


Now peabrain since he was over 18 and he was under 27 and he wasn't on
ACTIVE DUTY at the time, the law did require him to register and they did
change the law during the 1970's.



  #594  
Old July 22nd 04, 03:36 PM
ArtKramr
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Posts: n/a
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Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/21/2004 9:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Well, I joined the Marine Corps on my 18th birthday and my recruiter told

me
not to worry about it.


That's not the same as you claimed originally. What Marine unit were you

in?

My claims have been consistent.

I was at Parris Island from 11/12/73 to 2/11/74. I had ten days leave and
seven days transit time before I had to report to Intantry Training School at
Camp San Onofre -- Camp Pendleton.

Here's a picture I took from San Onofre of Mount Mother****er in 1974:

http://members.aol.com/walterm140/mountmother****er.jpg

I graduated from ITS on 4/12/74. I had a follow on school at Portsmouth --
the Sea Duty Indoctrination Course. That was a 4 week course. From McGuire
AFB I flew to Rota, Spain and joined the Marine Detachment of the U.S.S.
Simon
Lake.

Here's a picture of the Lake:

http://www.beachrealty.com/simonlake/as336.jpg

Here's a picture I took in the Marine Detachment in 1975. That's Tye Wright
and FiFi King in the foreground. In the left background is Gunnery Sergeant
Carlos Hathcock. Gunny Hathcock killed 93 men in Viet Nam. Some of his real
accomplishments were fictionalized in the movie "Sniper."

http://members.aol.com/walterm140/mardet75.jpg

Here's a picture I took on a CAX at 29 Palms in 1983:

http://members.aol.com/walterm140/cax84.jpg

Here I am at the Marine Corps Ball in 1983:

http://members.aol.com/walterm140/oki83.jpg

Oh. Here's a picture of my Porsche 928:

http://members.aol.com/walterm140/porsche928.jpg

Is that enough?

Walt



What percentage of those on this NG who challenge your service ever volunteered
for anything, much less the Marines?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

  #595  
Old July 22nd 04, 03:56 PM
Ed Rasimus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 22 Jul 2004 00:57:58 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

Now Mr Rasimus, I gather from your writing that you are a literate
man of at least moderate intelligence. You have indicated that
you are older than myself, that you work for the Smithsonian and
you read the Washington Times. Few people outside of the DC
area (and not a whole lot there either) read the Times so I figure
you live in the DC area.


Now Fred (I hesitate to use first names after you have been so
courteous, but also feel uncomfortable with whether or not "the Red
Shirt" is your entire last name or should be hyphenated. So, I'll use
the familiar.)

You aren't doing your homework, and that seems exceptional because in
other posts you've clearly demonstrated an ability to use Google and
maybe even Nexis.

Thank you for the compliment to my literacy and the moderation of my
intellect. I am, indeed probably older than you. Nearly as old as
dirt, having grown up shortly after the invention of fire.

But, you haven't paid attention at all regarding the remainder. I
don't work for Smithsonian. My books are published by Smithsonian
Institution Press. I'm a retired military tactical aviator and have
done freelance writing for computer magazines and teaching of
political science at my local college. I've got no employment
relationship with the Smithsonian.

Further I don't live in the DC area and I don't read the Washington
Times. I read the Colorado Springs Gazette, the Denver Post and the
Wall Street Journal.

I would guess that over the years you have heard at least as much
Senate 'testimony' as I have. You must have listened on one or
more occasion when people 'testified' by reading prepared speeches
and were then 'questioned' by Senators whose questions were themselves
also speeches.

So please, don't expect me to believe that you hope that when
someone testifies befor the Senate they are speaking literally.
You know better. Don't expect me to believe that you cannot tell
when a speaker shifts between general statements to specific
anecdotes and back again.


"Literal" testimony is fact. The opposite of literal is figurative.
General statements or specific statements of fact are literal.
Anecdotes are literal as are statistical data.

You're smart enough, and you're experienced enough. It is odd that
you do not seem to have expected others in the newsgroup to be
similarly endowed with those attributes.


I only observe the evidence. Many in the newsgroup are more amply
endowed than I. Some, regretably, regularly emphasize the contrary.

I might suggest that you Google my name and find out a bit about me.
Or query my name on Amazon.com and see what the books are about.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8
  #596  
Old July 22nd 04, 04:04 PM
oh boy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Paying attention to what?

You dodge any debate where you are asked to back up statments with
anything but "spin"
You make up things as you go along....
You quote out of context to create lies.....
You dismiss public military records or GWB because you don't like what
they say
You use a "fact" the unfounded opinions of other rabid usenet posters
who agree with you
etc, etc, etc

Ian MacLure wrote in message . ..
(ArtKramr) wrote in news:[email protected]
m06.aol.com:

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: "ian maclure"



Who says it is?
Trotskerry is a cowardly TREASONOUS SWINE.

IBM


Takes one to know one.


I can recognise lots of things.
Paying attention does that.
I've seen Trotskerry's type before.
Usually glad to see the back of them.
Kerry is a User. He takes something, uses
it for his own ends and buggers off leaving
somebody else ( a Builder ) to clean up the mess.
He's also a TREASONOUS SWINE but we knew that.

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 -
http://www.uncensored-news.com
The Worlds Uncensored News Source

  #597  
Old July 22nd 04, 05:51 PM
Buzzer
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On 22 Jul 2004 04:09:14 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote:

Oh. Here's a picture of my Porsche 928:

http://members.aol.com/walterm140/porsche928.jpg

Is that a Bondo patch down low on the right rear and looks like rust
just under the door?
  #598  
Old August 4th 04, 09:01 AM
WalterM140
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He is dead wrong in his support of Bush for reelection, IMHO. Bush
has cost our nation dearly with his unacknowledged mistakes and gaffes,
and if we are to believe the saying that "when you're in the hole, the

first
thing you've got to do is to stop digging" then it's clearly time for a

change.


What mistakes and gaffes are you referring to? What hole are we in?



Well, last night on MSNBC, Chris Mathews quoted Pres. Mubarak of Egypt as
saying invading Iraq had created 1,000 Bin Ladens.

Bush is a disastrous failure as president.

And:

"But Zinni broke ranks with the administration over the war in Iraq, and now,
in his harshest criticism yet, he says senior officials at the Pentagon are
guilty of dereliction of duty -- and that the time has come for heads to roll.
Correspondent Steve Kroft reports. “There has been poor strategic thinking in
this,” says Zinni.

“There has been poor operational planning and execution on the ground. And to
think that we are going to ‘stay the course,’ the course is headed over
Niagara Falls. I think it's time to change course a little bit, or at least
hold somebody responsible for putting you on this course. Because it's been a
failure.”

Zinni spent more than 40 years serving his country as a warrior and diplomat,
rising from a young lieutenant in Vietnam to four-star general with a
reputation for candor.

Now, in a new book about his career, co-written with Tom Clancy, called "Battle
Ready," Zinni has handed up a scathing indictment of the Pentagon and its
conduct of the war in Iraq.

In the book, Zinni writes: "In the lead up to the Iraq war and its later
conduct, I saw at a minimum, true dereliction, negligence and irresponsibility,
at worse, lying, incompetence and corruption."

“I think there was dereliction in insufficient forces being put on the ground
and fully understanding the military dimensions of the plan. I think there was
dereliction in lack of planning,” says Zinni. “The president is owed the
finest strategic thinking. He is owed the finest operational planning. He is
owed the finest tactical execution on the ground. … He got the latter. He
didn’t get the first two.”

Zinni says Iraq was the wrong war at the wrong time - with the wrong strategy.
And he was saying it before the U.S. invasion. In the months leading up to the
war, while still Middle East envoy, Zinni carried the message to Congress:
“This is, in my view, the worst time to take this on. And I don’t feel it
needs to be done now.”

But he wasn’t the only former military leader with doubts about the invasion
of Iraq. Former General and National Security Advisor Brent Scowcroft, former
Centcom Commander Norman Schwarzkopf, former NATO Commander Wesley Clark, and
former Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki all voiced their reservations.

Zinni believes this was a war the generals didn’t want – but it was a war
the civilians wanted.

“I can't speak for all generals, certainly. But I know we felt that this
situation was contained. Saddam was effectively contained. The no-fly, no-drive
zones. The sanctions that were imposed on him,” says Zinni.

“Now, at the same time, we had this war on terrorism. We were fighting al
Qaeda. We were engaged in Afghanistan. We were looking at 'cells' in 60
countries. We were looking at threats that we were receiving information on and
intelligence on. And I think most of the generals felt, let's deal with this
one at a time. Let's deal with this threat from terrorism, from al Qaeda.”


Mo

MR. RUSSERT: Let me show you another excerpt from your {senator Byrd] book:
"We keep hearing the refrain, `Stay the course.' What is the course? Is it
that we continue sending American troops to be used as sitting ducks in an
Iraqi shooting gallery? How long are we going to be fed the pap that fighting
the terrorists on the streets of Baghdad saves us from fighting terrorists on
the streets of New York City or Washington, D.C.?"

Mo

4-Star Marine General
Says Time To Get
Rid Of Neocons
`The Neo-Cons Have Had Their Day -
Now It's Time for a Clean Sweep'
Executive Intelligence Review
Interview With Gen. Joseph P. Hoar
By Jeffrey Steinberg
EIR
5-31-4

Gen. Joseph P. Hoar (USMC-ret.), a four-star general, was Commander in
Chief, U.S. Central Command (1991-94), commanding the U.S. forces in the
Persian Gulf after the 1991 war. He also served in the Vietnam War, as a
battalion and brigade advisor with the Vietnamese Marines. He was
interviewed by Jeffrey Steinberg on May 6, 2004.

EIR: You were one of the people who had been critical before the
outbreak of fighting, over whether or not the situation warranted going
to war. I believe you also had some rather accurate warnings about what
might happen, as the war unfolded, especially after the hot phase.
What's your thinking on these issues now, in hindsight, as we're over a
year past the formal fighting phase?

Hoar: There's small comfort in realizing that perhaps you were closer to
reality than the elected and appointed figures in the civilian
government. Those of us that have had some experience in the region over
the years, and don't necessarily have ulterior motivations, particularly
people that know very much about Iraq?and I don't necessarily put myself
in that category; specifically, I know a fair amount about the
political-military situation in the region, but know enough about Iraq
to know that any military operation and any subsequent reconstruction
efforts, to include the interjection of democracy, were going to be
extremely difficult, and perhaps impossible.

But, my major concern, Jeff, really was, that while I was in favor of
regime change, I was not in favor of it a year and a half or two years
ago, and certainly not these means."

KIA count in Iraq: 915

For nothng.



Walt
  #599  
Old August 4th 04, 09:02 AM
WalterM140
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I can think of no action more despicable than false public
condemnation of warriors on the field of battle, as John Kerry made
under oath.


I don't think anyone has shown that Senator Kerry made any untruthful
statements in his 1971 testimony.


snip clueless reference

But what does a news story about former senator Bob Kerrey of Nebraska have
to do
with that?


Can you show that Kerry made false statements back in 1971?


Walt
  #600  
Old August 6th 04, 03:47 AM
Billy Preston
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Default

"Peter Kemp" wrote

Each of those you listed, is our sworn enemy. They are free to point their
swords at us, or their leadership, and they have chosen us.


And this differs to Iraq - how?


Kurds, Shiite's, Marsh Arabs, and Exiles.


 




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