Who has started implementing the TSA rule?

OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty since midday
Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:

1) If a non-citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you
tell them that they have to submit to TSA: name, including aliases, their
brand new TSA ID number, a copy of their passport and visa, all the
information needed to get the visa and passport and previous visas and
passports, their country of birth, all current and past countries of
citizenship, their date of birth, dates and location of training, type of
training, fingerprints, address, phone number, addresses for the past 5
years, gender, a $130 fee, and any other information required by TSA. Then
you have to notify TSA about their request and submit a photograph. Then,
and only then, can you let them in your hot air balloon.

2) If a citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you have
to determine and continue to determine they are a citizen, and make a
specifically worded entry in their logbook (which they don't have yet)
referring to 49 CFR 1552.3(h). Everyone knows the wording, right?

Any CFIs want to recount how they have managed their newest students? I
don't expect to hear from anyone who has not done the above - after all,
you'd be admitting to breaking the law.

-- David Brooks
Believe!!!!!

Is it just me or do you see CFI's avoiding all non-US students.
Why deal with all this crap that can come back to haunt you
when you forgot to "dot an i, or cross a t". What's next....CFI's being
accused of "profiling"? Or what if a non-US citizen claims to be
one and gives you a bogus passport or birth certificate? Are
we going to lose all of our certificates over this?



"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty since
midday
Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:

1) If a non-citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you
tell them that they have to submit to TSA: name, including aliases, their
brand new TSA ID number, a copy of their passport and visa, all the
information needed to get the visa and passport and previous visas and
passports, their country of birth, all current and past countries of
citizenship, their date of birth, dates and location of training, type of
training, fingerprints, address, phone number, addresses for the past 5
years, gender, a $130 fee, and any other information required by TSA. Then
you have to notify TSA about their request and submit a photograph. Then,
and only then, can you let them in your hot air balloon.

2) If a citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you
have
to determine and continue to determine they are a citizen, and make a
specifically worded entry in their logbook (which they don't have yet)
referring to 49 CFR 1552.3(h). Everyone knows the wording, right?

Any CFIs want to recount how they have managed their newest students? I
don't expect to hear from anyone who has not done the above - after all,
you'd be admitting to breaking the law.

-- David Brooks
Believe!!!!!

As I understand it, the "training" required of CFI's by the TSA rule, still
isn't available. Last I looked at their website it said by the end of Oct
it would be posted. Anybody know different?

Jim


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the security training require of ALL CfIs.. not just those instructing
non-citizens is not due until Jan.

That's why you can find it yet on the web site. And it is not the end of
October yet.. they still have until Friday.

BT

"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
As I understand it, the "training" required of CFI's by the TSA rule,
still
isn't available. Last I looked at their website it said by the end of Oct
it would be posted. Anybody know different?

Jim


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 10/22/2004

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty since
midday
Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:

1) If a non-citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you
tell them that they have to submit to TSA: name, including aliases, their
brand new TSA ID number, a copy of their passport and visa, all the
information needed to get the visa and passport and previous visas and
passports, their country of birth, all current and past countries of
citizenship, their date of birth, dates and location of training, type of
training, fingerprints, address, phone number, addresses for the past 5
years, gender, a $130 fee, and any other information required by TSA. Then
you have to notify TSA about their request and submit a photograph. Then,
and only then, can you let them in your hot air balloon.

2) If a citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you
have
to determine and continue to determine they are a citizen, and make a
specifically worded entry in their logbook (which they don't have yet)
referring to 49 CFR 1552.3(h). Everyone knows the wording, right?

Any CFIs want to recount how they have managed their newest students? I
don't expect to hear from anyone who has not done the above - after all,
you'd be admitting to breaking the law.

Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a small number of
flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to get a M1 visa.
Without this form and the visa, students will not get past immigration.

Therefore there should not be many CFIs with non resident alien students
unless they are in a M1 approved flight school. These schools are used to
handling the necessary paperwork and this only represents a bit more.

Unlikely to be a problem therefore for the independent freelance instructor
without M1 approval as having non resident alien students is a breech of
regulations by both the instructor and the student who would get summarily
deported and possibly banned from future entry to the US.

What I would like to see is that the TSA requirements replace the visa
requirements and therefore provide more instructors with legal instruction
opportunities for non resident aliens. The added paperwork is surely worth
having a better business opportunity. After all I know of many potential
students who would like to train anywhere but in the Florida pilot
factories; but can you find an M1 approved school outside Florida and Lower
California....... very difficult. I for one would love to do some mountain
flying training up in Oregon but it is impossible legally as a non resident
alien. (unless someone knows of an M1 approved school) However, I can rent a
plane in Oregon.

Just some thoughts to see how there could be something good to come of this.

"Chris" wrote in message
...

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty since
midday
Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:

snip

Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a small number of
flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to get a M1 visa.
Without this form and the visa, students will not get past immigration.

Therefore there should not be many CFIs with non resident alien students
unless they are in a M1 approved flight school. These schools are used to
handling the necessary paperwork and this only represents a bit more.

No doubt, if you restrict your analysis to nonresidents.

But the TSA has affirmed that their rule applies to resident aliens also. We
form 13% of the pilot population, and we not only got past immigration, we
have jobs and homes here. That means we form 13% of the people walking on
the door of every flight school and independent instructor in the country
(unless you want to reduce that number by those who have foreign
certificates; I haven't even thought whether their conversion to a US
certificate would be covered by the rule).

-- David Brooks
Believe!!!!!

In article , David Brooks wrote:
But the TSA has affirmed that their rule applies to resident aliens also. We
form 13% of the pilot population, and we not only got past immigration, we

Also, I think the cost of doing the full TSA thing borne by the student
is in the region of $450 (there's more than one fee-bearing process you
have to go through).

Fortunately, you can still get a BFR or checkout without the TSA
requirements (the TSA has since clarified the requirements and
specifically excluded BFRs and other recurrent instruction for
already-rated pilots) - otherwise all my future flying vacations would
have been in Canada, not the US.

In fact, for getting new ratings, Canada's a better bet. It's probably
cheaper to pay for a CFI in a border town to come over with the N-reg
plane than pay all the TSA fees. This is why the TSA's assinine new
regulations won't make a speck of difference - there are other countries
without these assinine rules.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"David Brooks" wrote in
:

"Chris" wrote in message
...

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty
since midday
Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:

snip

Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a small number
of flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to get a M1
visa. Without this form and the visa, students will not get past
immigration.

Therefore there should not be many CFIs with non resident alien
students unless they are in a M1 approved flight school. These
schools are used to handling the necessary paperwork and this only
represents a bit more.

No doubt, if you restrict your analysis to nonresidents.

But the TSA has affirmed that their rule applies to resident aliens
also. We form 13% of the pilot population, and we not only got past
immigration, we have jobs and homes here. That means we form 13% of
the people walking on the door of every flight school and independent
instructor in the country (unless you want to reduce that number by
those who have foreign certificates; I haven't even thought whether
their conversion to a US certificate would be covered by the rule).

-- David Brooks
Believe!!!!!





How does a permanent resident student get an I-20?? He already lives and
works in this country.




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"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
. 4...
"David Brooks" wrote in
:

"Chris" wrote in message
...

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty
since midday
Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:

snip

Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a small number
of flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to get a M1
visa. Without this form and the visa, students will not get past
immigration.

Therefore there should not be many CFIs with non resident alien
students unless they are in a M1 approved flight school. These
schools are used to handling the necessary paperwork and this only
represents a bit more.

No doubt, if you restrict your analysis to nonresidents.

But the TSA has affirmed that their rule applies to resident aliens
also. We form 13% of the pilot population, and we not only got past
immigration, we have jobs and homes here. That means we form 13% of
the people walking on the door of every flight school and independent
instructor in the country (unless you want to reduce that number by
those who have foreign certificates; I haven't even thought whether
their conversion to a US certificate would be covered by the rule).

-- David Brooks
Believe!!!!!





How does a permanent resident student get an I-20?? He already lives and
works in this country.

I think you are agreeing with me. The IFR refers to all noncitizens and, in
the 12500 context, the visa issue is a red herring. The GA part of the rule
does not talk about visa issuance.

-- David Brooks
Believe!!!!!

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
. 4...
"David Brooks" wrote in
:

"Chris" wrote in message
...

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty
since midday
Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:

snip

Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a small number
of flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to get a M1
visa. Without this form and the visa, students will not get past
immigration.

Therefore there should not be many CFIs with non resident alien
students unless they are in a M1 approved flight school. These
schools are used to handling the necessary paperwork and this only
represents a bit more.

No doubt, if you restrict your analysis to nonresidents.

But the TSA has affirmed that their rule applies to resident aliens
also. We form 13% of the pilot population, and we not only got past
immigration, we have jobs and homes here. That means we form 13% of
the people walking on the door of every flight school and independent
instructor in the country (unless you want to reduce that number by
those who have foreign certificates; I haven't even thought whether
their conversion to a US certificate would be covered by the rule).

-- David Brooks
Believe!!!!!





How does a permanent resident student get an I-20?? He already lives and
works in this country.

I think you are agreeing with me. The IFR refers to all noncitizens and,
in
the 12500 context, the visa issue is a red herring. The GA part of the
rule
does not talk about visa issuance.

Wrong the visa is not a red herring at all. Visas apply to all types of
training irrespective of the size of the aircraft.
The IFR does actually refer to visas as one of the requirements for non
resident aliens. Resident aliens have no need of a visa as they already have
leave to reside in the US.

Here is a link about the need for a visa which is absolute. The IFR from the
TSA just puts bells and whistles on the process.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=65838

Here is an extract from a DHS site which does mention visas

Alien Flight Student Program Overview:

Flight training for foreign pilots, foreign student pilots, and other non-US
citizens (e.g. green card holders):

a.. Flight schools may not start flight training (aircraft or flight
simulator) until the following have been accomplished:
a.. Photo of the pilot or student taken "when the candidate arrived at
the flight school for training" must be submitted to TSA. (You can't arrive
with photos in your wallet)
b.. Pilots and students must submit required background check
information on a form available on-line at:

https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov
This may be submitted from their overseas location prior to entering the
US for training.

c.. Pilots and students must submit fingerprints (10-fingers) to TSA.
The American Association of Airport Executives (AAAE) is the clearinghouse
for all fingerprint submissions to TSA. Information on their procedures can
be obtained at 703-797-2550. There are currently no procedures in place for
pilots or students to have their fingerprints taken at a foreign location.
d.. Flight schools will obtain a web access code from their local FSDO,
then submit to TSA information that the pilot or student wants to start
flight training and the type of training requested.
e.. Pilots and students must provide the flight school with a current
and valid passport and visa, if appropriate.
b.. Flight training (aircraft or flight simulator) may begin immediately
upon submission of all required items to TSA and AAAE.
c.. Flight training will be immediately terminated TSA notifies flight
school to cease training.
d.. Flight training not started within 180-days from submission of
required items to TSA and AAAE voids all submitted information and the
applicant must resubmit all the information.
e.. The flight school must maintain a copy of the appropriate documents on
file for a minimum of 5 years.
Contact Information
For questions on the Alien Flight Student Program (AFSP), please contact the
AFSP Help Desk at 703-542-1222. E-mail questions are also being accepted at: