Precision Landings and practice

john smith wrote:
Sooooo... is there going to be a "Spot Landing" contest as part of this
year's Alexis Park Inn Aerial Open Pre-Airventure Party?

Fantastic idea John. I can hardly imagine the prizes this group would
come up with for best/worst spot landing performance.

Jay - Let's see...7.5 months...a prospective partner and I have a rough
3-6 month time frame we're looking to buy (fully realizing it can take
waaaaaaaay longer than that)...yep, it just might work. I could be
flying to OSH in *my* airplane this year.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student, airplane partnership student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

Jay - Let's see...7.5 months...a prospective partner and I have a rough
3-6 month time frame we're looking to buy (fully realizing it can take
waaaaaaaay longer than that)...yep, it just might work. I could be flying
to OSH in *my* airplane this year.

Awesome!

You still looking at Cardinals?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Stefan"
Also, commercial glider pilots must be able to drop the plane between
two lines 100' appart.

Which is not that impressing when you consider that with those huge
airbrakes, you can adjust your glidepath to anything between 50:1 to 5:1.

Airbrakes are far superior to flaps for glidepath control but I'm sure you
are exaggerating to make the point. Few gliders can achieve 50:1 and I'm
not sure about 5:1 either. But they are effective even if not huge.

But not always. I had the pleasure to do my initial training in a Schwiezer
2-22 where the difference in glide ratio with zero spoilers and full
spoilers was barely distinguishable (slight exaggeration). Side slips with
full spoilers were standard procedure. A nice training experience.

My first owned sailplane was the Finnish PIK20-b. A 70's vintage glass ship
with no spoilers. It had flaps that were infinitely adjustable between -8
and +90 degrees. Flaps can out perform spoilers in the sense that steep
descents can be achieved at slower speed. Problems include the need for
tight airspeed control to avoid balloning and float along with the fact that
flaps are effectively 'one way' devices, especially on gliders. Once you
roll in landing flaps and slow down, you really can't increase your glide
ratio by rolling them off. If you do retract the flaps to increase your
glide ratio, you generally have to increase your speed and/or let your
descent rate go up to regain some energy before the desired effect can be
achieved. With an engine, you can counteract that but in a glider all you
have is height and speed.

The PIK could be set down on a dime once the technique was learned. The
trick was to fly final with 90degs of flap and flare a foot or so off the
ground. Unless you entered the flare with a ridiculously low airspeed,
ground effect was sure to float you past any planned landing point. But
when you the desired point was reached, you simply dumped the flaps and
flared for a 2 pointer. However, the flaps were actuated with a crank that
required 2-3 full turns to dump. Imagine rubbing your tummy and patting
your head at the same time. It took a full season before I could detach the
cranking with my left hand from the smooth pulling with my right. Imagine a
bouncing ball..... But once mastered, you could land with a yard of any
intended point.

wrote in message
ps.com...
As a segue from off airport landings....how about precision? Can you
consistently touch down at minimum speed with your regular aircraft
within a 50' mark? Can you do it with a short/soft/XW/ Obstacle? Can
you do it with any configuration of flaps and or power?

Yes, but I practice it.

And while I used to take it for granted, I no longer do. I've done a lot of
off field work in gliders where landing precision is a given. The Maule is
known to be good short field machine but it's not as easy to spot land or
short field land as I would have thought. But when I took my commercial
training, I had convinced my instructors that the power off landings to a
spot landing would not be an issue due to my experience. I failed my check
ride for missing the spot. On the following day, I failed it a second time
for missing the same spot! Flying the Mooney power-off to spot was
different than doing it in a glider or a Maule.

So I no longer believe that I could perform accurate spot landings in
something other than my regular plane without practice.

Maule Driver wrote:

Airbrakes are far superior to flaps for glidepath control but I'm sure you
are exaggerating to make the point. Few gliders can achieve 50:1 and I'm
not sure about 5:1 either.

Ok, I admit. So I'll reduce it to between 48:1 and 7:1. (48:1 being the
best glide for an LS8 with 18m, and JAR-22 requires a glide ratio of
less than 7:1 with airbrakes deployed.) Maybe I should even reduce the
upper limit to 45:1 for the bugs. :-)

I had the pleasure to do my initial training in a Schwiezer
2-22 where the difference in glide ratio with zero spoilers and full
spoilers was barely distinguishable (slight exaggeration).

The airbrakes of the Rhönlerche (aka Rhönstone) were called "noise
makers" because the only difference they made was the noise level. :-)
Slips were *very* effetive, however.

The PIK could be set down on a dime once the technique was learned.

Every airplane can be set down on a dime once the technique has been
learned (and is regularly practised!). Of course it may be more
difficult for some planes than for others.

But
when you the desired point was reached, you simply dumped the flaps and
flared for a 2 pointer.

Just smashing down the glider doesn't count. At least it doesn't at the
spot landing contests of our club. On the other hand, when outlanding,
the only thing which counts is the result and nobody will care about
style, of course.

Stefan

Jay Honeck wrote:
Awesome!

You still looking at Cardinals?

Yep...at the moment, a Cardinal RG is at the top of the list and is the
main focus of our research efforts. Still lots of work to do and many
variables to consider along the way.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student, airplane partnership student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

"john smith" wrote

Sooooo... is there going to be a "Spot Landing" contest as part of this
year's Alexis Park Inn Aerial Open Pre-Airventure Party?

ONLY if it can be judged from pool side. Jay DOES have his priorities set,
right Jay? g
--
Jim in NC

If it has 5x5.00 tires, make yourself a set of 12"x12"x1" plywood
platforms to park the wheels on any soft surface. The smaller tires
readily sink into soft turf, making it difficult to extract the aircraft
to depart. Saves the engine/landing gear and your body from excessive abuse.

Jack Allison wrote:
Yep...at the moment, a Cardinal RG is at the top of the list and is the
main focus of our research efforts. Still lots of work to do and many
variables to consider along the way.

"Stefan"
The PIK could be set down on a dime once the technique was learned.

Every airplane can be set down on a dime once the technique has been
learned (and is regularly practised!). Of course it may be more
difficult for some planes than for others.

I'd have to agree but perhaps not all. A long wing ship I've heard about
that really doesn't spot land is the U2 (it was just hangar talk - can
anyone comment?)

when you the desired point was reached, you simply dumped the flaps and
flared for a 2 pointer.

Just smashing down the glider doesn't count. At least it doesn't at the
spot landing contests of our club. On the other hand, when outlanding,
the only thing which counts is the result and nobody will care about
style, of course.

This wasn't a smash down. Rather it resulted in a particularly smooth,
precise, and satisfying landing (once one learned to eliminate the PIOsfrom
cranking with one hand while controlling pitch with the other). Problem was
that the technique was not documented as far as I know. Just the technique
taught by one experienced PIK owner to another.

Otherwise I would submit that gliders that depend on flaps only for glide
path control *cannot* be consistently and safely landed 'on a dime' in the
normal range of conditions without the kind of non-standard technique
described above. The PIK couldn't and the Schweizer 1-35 couldn't in my
experience. And I think that fact that no one builds production gliders
with this configuration is a reflection of this. But my experience is
limited here.

Do you ever feel that there may be some value is practicing with hitting
other spots - say a midfield turnoff on a particularly long runway? Just to
practice with a different visual picture.

I've only flown into one of the big airshows once - Fun and Sun. My
initiation was the request to land as long as possible and take the last
turn-off. The optimal landing involved landing on the say the last 1,000 of
the runway. Adding some distance for safety, Mom and the insurance company
is prudent but it is definitely a different landing problem and challenging
when it's thrown at you 200' high on final.

So what do you thing about changing the spot in addition to changing the
approach and a/c config?

"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-28CCB2.22101411122004@shawnews...
Speaking for myself I do that every single landing.
At my home airport I land on the 1000 ft markers - usually a different
type of landing every time - power on/power off/flaps/no flaps - but
ALWAYS exactly on the 1000 ft markers. At other airports, if there is
room I land on the 1000 ft markers, if there isn't I land on the numbers
- but I always vary it and I always - every single time - land on the
numbers or the 1000 ft markers.
To me, that's just practicing for the day I have an emergency and have
to put the plane down with precision.

Tony
C-GICE




In article om,
wrote:

As a segue from off airport landings....how about precision? Can you
consistently touch down at minimum speed with your regular aircraft
within a 50' mark? Can you do it with a short/soft/XW/ Obstacle? Can
you do it with any configuration of flaps and or power?
OK....got an electrical failure that prevents any flaps from coming
down and you are faced with a no flap landing. Should be a piece of
cake but when is the last time you did it with precision? Suppose you
have an engine failure and are headed down into a wooded area with only
a small meadow for any decent landing? The surface is unknown, trees
all the way around, and you're not sure of the exact wind until you are
committed on final. There you have the elements of
short/soft/XW/Obstacle all wrapped up in one and easy to visualize.
Many different scenarios that can be described that are day to day
events at the airport but so few ever challenge their abilities. I
can't remember the last time I saw a spot landing contest or even heard
of one being proposed. Great way to focus on precision landings and
make them fun.
All of my students have been challenged to beat me at spot landings but
so far none have managed...close but no cigar. That only serves to
motivate them to do better and in turn makes them better pilots.
How about your landings?
Fly safe and Merry Christmas to you all
Rocky aka Ol Shy & Bashful Selway Kid




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE