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#41
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The Osprey Goes to War
Andrew Swallow wrote:
Vince wrote: [snip] The net result is that all of the "advantages" of the osprey only occur at relatively long range. At short range it is inferior to a modern helicopter in every possible way. But the Cobra is not a long range aircraft It has a maximum payload of about 3500 pounds of crew fuel and weapons. The more fuel loaded , the less armament So how do you mix the two? Vince Some ideas. 1.Launch from different ships/airfields in different locations. Say one north of the target and the other south of the target. which one is the close one ? 2. Launch at different times. The Cobras in the first wave and the Ospreys in the second wave. This also permits the ship to have a smaller flight deck. no surprise and you have to be short range 3. Replace the Cobras with a long range aircraft for the close in escort role. Which one? the F007 Magic Fairy Dust ? 4. Modify some of the Ospreys to carry guns rather than people. The Ospreys can then escort the Ospreys. Appropriate guns and missiles will have to be determined. 120 million plus a pop Vince |
#42
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The Osprey Goes to War
On Oct 5, 12:52 pm, Walt wrote:
On Oct 5, 9:24?am, Typhoon502 wrote: On Oct 5, 8:54 am, Walt wrote: Harriers and Ospreys are incompatible in their capabilities, and Harriers can't scan the terrain and react the way a helo can. The speed and range of the Osprey is moot because it is limited to the speed and range of the Cobra. That is just bedrock. The TOT scenario assumes that the Ospreys won't be escorted en route and that is just an insupportable position. That too is bedrock. Sorry, not buying it. You evolve your tactics to use your new capability, you don't restrict your capability to stick to old tactics. Your argument is with the laws of physics, not me. Until you can get the laws of physics to change, or the nature of war, the Osprey is a giant useless boondoggle, at least for any missions that might involve an enemy force. How on earth is it a violation of laws of physics to launch Cobras at 0330 and Ospreys at 0430? And I still want to know what genius of planning would schedule the transports to arrive in the hot zone at the same time that the first armed aircraft are arriving. |
#43
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The Osprey Goes to War
On Oct 5, 12:50 pm, Typhoon502 wrote:
On Oct 5, 12:52 pm, Walt wrote: On Oct 5, 9:24?am, Typhoon502 wrote: On Oct 5, 8:54 am, Walt wrote: Harriers and Ospreys are incompatible in their capabilities, and Harriers can't scan the terrain and react the way a helo can. The speed and range of the Osprey is moot because it is limited to the speed and range of the Cobra. That is just bedrock. The TOT scenario assumes that the Ospreys won't be escorted en route and that is just an insupportable position. That too is bedrock. Sorry, not buying it. You evolve your tactics to use your new capability, you don't restrict your capability to stick to old tactics. Your argument is with the laws of physics, not me. Until you can get the laws of physics to change, or the nature of war, the Osprey is a giant useless boondoggle, at least for any missions that might involve an enemy force. How on earth is it a violation of laws of physics to launch Cobras at 0330 and Ospreys at 0430? And I still want to know what genius of planning would schedule the transports to arrive in the hot zone at the same time that the first armed aircraft are arriving. IIRC wasn't it SOP during WWII that fighter escorts would rendevous with long range bombers at some point during the mission. They left from different airfields, at different times, yet still often made the rendevous and stayed with the bombers as long as they could (prior to the long range escorts) and eventually throughout the flight while in hostile skies. With modern advancements in technology you would think if they could do it back then, they can do it better now. Coordinating your escort gunships to arrive at the LZ 10 minutes before the transports, from different (closer) airbases, or leaving from the same base earlier, isn't rocket science. BB I guess everybody has some mountain to climb. It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet... |
#44
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The Osprey Goes to War
Typhoon502 wrote:
On Oct 5, 12:52 pm, Walt wrote: On Oct 5, 9:24?am, Typhoon502 wrote: On Oct 5, 8:54 am, Walt wrote: Harriers and Ospreys are incompatible in their capabilities, and Harriers can't scan the terrain and react the way a helo can. The speed and range of the Osprey is moot because it is limited to the speed and range of the Cobra. That is just bedrock. The TOT scenario assumes that the Ospreys won't be escorted en route and that is just an insupportable position. That too is bedrock. Sorry, not buying it. You evolve your tactics to use your new capability, you don't restrict your capability to stick to old tactics. Your argument is with the laws of physics, not me. Until you can get the laws of physics to change, or the nature of war, the Osprey is a giant useless boondoggle, at least for any missions that might involve an enemy force. How on earth is it a violation of laws of physics to launch Cobras at 0330 and Ospreys at 0430? And I still want to know what genius of planning would schedule the transports to arrive in the hot zone at the same time that the first armed aircraft are arriving. how far away are each group you lose surprise Vince |
#45
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The Osprey Goes to War
BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 5, 12:50 pm, Typhoon502 wrote: SNIP How on earth is it a violation of laws of physics to launch Cobras at 0330 and Ospreys at 0430? And I still want to know what genius of planning would schedule the transports to arrive in the hot zone at the same time that the first armed aircraft are arriving. IIRC wasn't it SOP during WWII that fighter escorts would rendevous with long range bombers at some point during the mission. They left from different airfields, at different times, yet still often made the rendevous and stayed with the bombers as long as they could (prior to the long range escorts) and eventually throughout the flight while in hostile skies. With modern advancements in technology you would think if they could do it back then, they can do it better now. Coordinating your escort gunships to arrive at the LZ 10 minutes before the transports, from different (closer) airbases, or leaving from the same base earlier, isn't rocket science. Sure fighters rendezvoused with bombers.. (But exactly how accurate was the timing? Within minutes of schedule, at the appointed place on a map?) When the escorts joined with the bomber stream they throttled back to the speed of the transports so the missions could stay "together".. Of course the escorts, being faster could also fly loops etc giving better cover.. Now reverse the equation.. The escorts (helicopter gunships) rendezvous with the V-22s.. The V-22s slow down to the cruise sped of the helicopters... also altitude.. Which kind of defeats the justification for the V-22. The alternative is time on target.. gunships and transports arrive at the LZ at the same time.. which means the V-22s have to transit without any escort (Unless they get aircraft escorts?).. The Helicopters should arrive ahead of the V-22s to suppress the ground before the V-22s come in (The V-22 arriving first is contraindicated).. The big problem is.. Once the mission is launched.. If for any reason the LZ is moved... You have to contact all units to get them to (1) turn back for re planning, or (2) schedule arrival at the new LZ... Trying to schedule a new rendezvous once an operation has been launched ... Well.. I'm sure it would be an interesting exercise.. Lot's of ways things could go wrong... (If the two units -- transports and escort-- were flying together.. No such problem..) Do the V-22s circle at altitude until the LZ is considered safe? |
#46
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The Osprey Goes to War
Mike Williamson wrote:
Walt wrote: On Oct 5, 9:24?am, Typhoon502 wrote: Sorry, not buying it. You evolve your tactics to use your new capability, you don't restrict your capability to stick to old tactics. Your argument is with the laws of physics, not me. Until you can get the laws of physics to change, or the nature of war, the Osprey is a giant useless boondoggle, at least for any missions that might involve an enemy force. Wat The nature of war has already changed, several times. As to the laws of physics, in which physics book will I find the law that the Osprey must be escorted along its entire path by an apache gunship? Also, while you're at it, please detail exactly which part of your vast military experience makes your opinion on the Osprey more authoritative than that of the Marine Corps. Mike The laws of physics are that the Osprey is inferior to a helicopter appealing to USMC "expertise"is the same as appealing to USN Battleship expertise in the WWII era Vince |
#47
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The Osprey Goes to War
On Oct 5, 6:10 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote:
The alternative is time on target.. gunships and transports arrive at the LZ at the same time.. which means the V-22s have to transit without any escort (Unless they get aircraft escorts?).. I want to know just how busy these escorts are expected to be. The Helicopters should arrive ahead of the V-22s to suppress the ground before the V-22s come in (The V-22 arriving first is contraindicated).. Helos, Harriers, and Hornets, at the least. ANY troop carrier being fired upon during a landing sequence means quite a few somebodys have ****ed up severely. The big problem is.. Once the mission is launched.. If for any reason the LZ is moved... You have to contact all units to get them to (1) turn back for re planning, or (2) schedule arrival at the new LZ... Trying to schedule a new rendezvous once an operation has been launched .. Well.. I'm sure it would be an interesting exercise.. Lot's of ways things could go wrong... (If the two units -- transports and escort-- were flying together.. No such problem..) Do the V-22s circle at altitude until the LZ is considered safe? They can stay further from the LZ or hot zone because they can go further, faster when it's clear, which I'd think is an asset. |
#48
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The Osprey Goes to War
Again you lose the speed advantage , the only rationale for this one trick pony so that newcomers understand. The ospreys speed advantage in horizontal flight is derived from rotating the prop rotors to horizontal flight. However this put an absolute maximum size on both the rotor and the cabin. Both are inefficiently small The small "prop rotors" are inefficient in vertical flight. They are far smaller than an efficient helicopter rotor driven by the same horsepower. So the horsepower requirements are enormous for the lift. Because the horsepower requirements are enormous the osprey has the Engines of a heavy lift helicopter and the cargo capabilities of a medium lift helicopter. The small rotors are driven faster which creates far greater down wash as they land. The tilt machinery and long drive shaft required to deal with engine failure impose a permanent weight penalty. so weight control was critical. The net result is that all of the "advantages" of the osprey only occur at relatively long range. At short range it is inferior to a modern helicopter in every possible way. But the Cobra is not a long range aircraft It has a maximum payload of about 3500 pounds of crew fuel and weapons. The more fuel loaded , the less armament Helos are by their nature not long range propositions. The Osprey is a worst of both worlds proposition. It's pessimal. Worse even than the Canadair tilt wing transports of the 60s. Helos are poor escort platforms, unless some bizarre hover-fight is envisioned. A WWII recip fighter would be a better escort. Sadly, some politician's kid is going to have to die in a horrific crash-along with thirty or so other people-before the Osprey is euthanized. |
#49
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The Osprey Goes to War
The laws of physics are that the Osprey is inferior to a helicopter appealing to USMC "expertise"is the same as appealing to USN Battleship expertise in the WWII era Sacred Vessels. |
#50
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The Osprey Goes to War
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 13:39:29 -0700, BlackBeard
wrote: With modern advancements How do they differ from advances? Someone invented a new word while my back was turned. Casady |
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