Violating Airspace with GPS

Interesting timing ...

At present I'm trying (without much success) to investigate an apparent
anomoly where my GPSMAP 295 (with latest database and firmware) is
steadfastly refusing to acknowledge some of our controlled airspace - and is
yet quite happy to display adjacent controlled airspace.

As it stands at the moment with my GPS I could quite happily fly into the
middle of the Nelson TMA and not have the GPS give any indication of being
in any kind of controlled airspace.

See my post from yesterday if anyone is able to help us resolve this (no
replies to date)

Cheers,

Colin


"John Bell" wrote in message
om...
It appears that a lot of pilots are violating airspace even with GPS on
board.

I would like to hear some feedback as to how pilots are violating airspace
with GPS. I address this in my online book, www.cockpitgps.com. I have
my
hypothesis, but I would like to hear your experience or scenarios that you
have heard involving this issue.

Also of interest is how you might be using GPS to successfully avoid
airspace violations.

Other hypothesis are also welcome.

Thanks,

John Bell
www.cockpitgps.com

Here is my hypothesis:

I have already mentioned in my discussion of database currency that you
should set up a routing around any airspace and check it with a current
chart before flight. Even with a current database, it is possible for the
GPS to get you into trouble with airspaces.
Aviation receivers can be setup to display airspace boundaries and to give
warnings before entering certain airspace classifications such as category
B
airspace. These warnings can be a great benefit or a nuisance depending on
the type of flying that you are doing. Thus, most receivers allow you to
turn them on or off. Additionally, which boundaries will display and at
what
point of zooming out they will disappear can be set. The ability to make
these settings is a good feature and I would not want to see this changed.
However, it is possible to have the GPS not display or not warn of an
impending airspace violation if you have the GPS set up incorrectly for
the
mission.
Even if the airspace boundary is displayed, it is often difficult to
decide
what boundary a given line applies to. On the Garmin aviation receivers it
is possible to cursor over the point to get a description. On a handheld
GPS
just press the rocker pad up, down, left, or right to start moving the
cursor. On the GPS 400 and 500 series, press in on the knob and then start
moving the cursor. Move the cursor to highlight the line and press the
ENTER
button to get information on the airspace. This is a great feature at the
planning stage and is occasionally useful in flight. When you have
preplanned the route and have a route line, the context of the border is
obvious. However, I think that it is possible to confuse borders and
violate
airspace without first creating a route using a chart before flight.

Bingo...

"C J Campbell"
Pilots also blunder into airspace because they are fooling around with the
GPS instead of paying attention to what they are doing.

Robert,

I do indeed remember meeting you in Lakeland. Whenever I see one of your
posts, it is like picking up a paper and seeing a byline from a reporter
that I respect.

Actually, my response to Ron Natalie was a little more than tongue in cheek.
It was somewhat of a combination of defensiveness and worry that I might be
spreading bad information. Ron's statement that my explanation of how GPS
works: "while one of the common ones often espoused
has no basis in reality. This is not how GPS works" has me curious.

Unfortunately, Ron's statement unfortunately gives me little to correct my
understanding if it is indeed wrong. Luckily, even if my explanation of how
GPS works is totally incorrect, it should not have serious consequences as
far as usage is concerned.


John

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 7...
Larry Dighera wrote

There are very knowledgable folks willing to answer all your
questions there.

:-) :-) Since John has written texts on GPS Navigation, I suspect
that he was pulling someone's leg.

http://www.smallboatgps.com/ http://www.cockpitgps.com/


Hi John, how's things going? Remember meeting at SnF?

Bob Moore

CJ,

Thanks very much for the response. Your perspective is very illuminating
and confirms many of my suspicions and observations.

I often fly over near Washington, D.C. I can't tell you how many times that
I have heard the authorities trying to raise an aircraft that has violated
the Washington ADIZ on 121.5. The same aircraft that is violating the
airspace are usually not monitoring 121.5. Usually, it is a futile
broadcast in the blind. In fact I have never heard a response from an
errant aircraft.

Thanks everybody else for your responses also.

--John Bell
www.cockpitgps.com

The biggest problem appears to be when the pilot has the Zoom level too
tight and they can't see all the rings and miss read one level for another.

Kobra

"John Bell" wrote in message
om...
It appears that a lot of pilots are violating airspace even with GPS on
board.

I would like to hear some feedback as to how pilots are violating airspace
with GPS. I address this in my online book, www.cockpitgps.com. I have
my
hypothesis, but I would like to hear your experience or scenarios that you
have heard involving this issue.

Also of interest is how you might be using GPS to successfully avoid
airspace violations.

Other hypothesis are also welcome.

Thanks,

John Bell
www.cockpitgps.com

Here is my hypothesis:

I have already mentioned in my discussion of database currency that you
should set up a routing around any airspace and check it with a current
chart before flight. Even with a current database, it is possible for the
GPS to get you into trouble with airspaces.
Aviation receivers can be setup to display airspace boundaries and to give
warnings before entering certain airspace classifications such as category
B
airspace. These warnings can be a great benefit or a nuisance depending on
the type of flying that you are doing. Thus, most receivers allow you to
turn them on or off. Additionally, which boundaries will display and at
what
point of zooming out they will disappear can be set. The ability to make
these settings is a good feature and I would not want to see this changed.
However, it is possible to have the GPS not display or not warn of an
impending airspace violation if you have the GPS set up incorrectly for
the
mission.
Even if the airspace boundary is displayed, it is often difficult to
decide
what boundary a given line applies to. On the Garmin aviation receivers it
is possible to cursor over the point to get a description. On a handheld
GPS
just press the rocker pad up, down, left, or right to start moving the
cursor. On the GPS 400 and 500 series, press in on the knob and then start
moving the cursor. Move the cursor to highlight the line and press the
ENTER
button to get information on the airspace. This is a great feature at the
planning stage and is occasionally useful in flight. When you have
preplanned the route and have a route line, the context of the border is
obvious. However, I think that it is possible to confuse borders and
violate
airspace without first creating a route using a chart before flight.

John Bell wrote:

It appears that a lot of pilots are violating airspace even with GPS on
board.

Actually, from what I've read, *more* violations occur with GPS on board than
without. The reason is that pilots with GPS tend to cut pretty close to the
limits because the *think* they know exactly where those airspace limits are.
Pilots without GPS receivers tend to give protected airspace a little more
leeway because they aren't exactly sure where they are.

George Patterson
You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the mud.

In fact I have never heard a response from an
errant aircraft.

The response, had it been audible, probably would have been along the
lines of: "I may be errant, but I'm not stupid!"

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Violation of airspace comes from lack of preflight planning. If you
wait until you are in the air near airspace to figure out what you are
doing, you are in big trouble, with or without GPS. You can see from
dozens of past threads in this group about no longer carrying charts,
etc, that many pilots think GPS is magic and will solve all their
problems. Not true at all. Technology does not take the place of
common sense and diligence. With blind dependence on technology, you
can get into deeper doo-doo a lot faster than without it. A GPS is
great for telling you where you are, but you've got to know where you
want to be first. I seldom use my moving map. I use GPS to verify that
I am on my pre-planned course and I don't violate airspace.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.


I would like to hear some feedback as to how pilots are violating airspace
with GPS. I address this in my online book, www.cockpitgps.com. I have my
hypothesis, but I would like to hear your experience or scenarios that you
have heard involving this issue.

Also of interest is how you might be using GPS to successfully avoid
airspace violations.

IMHO: GPS stinks (today) for airspace mapping/boundaries.

About a year ago I was flying a 172 with a B&W Garmin (Panel mounted -
I'm not sure the model) and the database was somehow incorrect -
placing Santa Rosa STS about 8-10 miles North of it's actual position.
There was a VOR on field - why use GPS there?

A month ago, I was flying a club 172 with a panel mounted Garmin 430
(I think IFR certified too). As I skirted San Jose's (SJC) class C,
the 430 showed me about 1mi *inside* the outer shelf. I stayed low
around 2000'-2500' (I forget at the moment, but was being a 'good
citizen') and as I saw the mountains ahead (flying South towards
Monterey) asked Norcal Appch/Dep if I was clear of SJC's C. They were
nice, friendly, and said something like: "Yeah - you were clear miles
ago". Looking out the window, I would roughly estimate my distance to
SJC to be in the 10-15mi range, but I was waiting for the magical
gizmo to *show* me that I was clear of the shelf.

Moral of the story: I purchased a simple handheld Magellan that I can
use as (a) a backup, and (b) a simple course/groundspeed calculator.
I'd rather not have the distractions of potentially inaccurate
colorful inside maps when my eyeballs should be outside the plane at
as much as possible.

Just my 2c.
Noah



It appears that a lot of pilots are violating airspace even with GPS on
board.

Actually, from what I've read, *more* violations occur with GPS on board than
without. The reason is that pilots with GPS tend to cut pretty close to the
limits because the *think* they know exactly where those airspace limits are.
Pilots without GPS receivers tend to give protected airspace a little more
leeway because they aren't exactly sure where they are.

George Patterson
You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the mud.

Gene Seibel wrote:
...snip... A GPS is
great for telling you where you are, but you've got to know where you
want to be first. I seldom use my moving map.

Completely agree except for one point...

A GPS is excellent at *knowing* where you are, but very few of them (if
any) can transfer that information to you in a suitably efficient way.
So I disagree that they are "...great for *telling you* where you
are..." :-) Trying to interpret that tiny moving map is where the
distractions occur and the potential for error...

Concentrating on CTS, Bearing to next waypoint, and XTE for a
well-planned (and correctly entered) route, is so much easier and more
informative.

Perhaps the GPS is making us forget that it is so much more important to
know where to go next, than it is to confirm where you are now.