Total electrical failure - (hypothetical)

"Peter Clark" wrote in message
...
Quite a few he http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/wreckage.html


I was thinking more along the lines of these:

http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/ffallers.html

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...
C J Campbell wrote:
This comes very close to the category of a non-critical emergency,
defined
as an emergency where, no matter what you do, you are going to die.

That's a hell of a defeatist attitude, and demonstrably wrong since
people HAVE survived exactly this situation.


Yes, and people have survived jumping out of the plane without a parachute
at 20,000 feet, too. But the odds are against it. Personally, I think the
way you deal with an electrical failure in IMC with no GPS or handheld
radio
is that you avoid putting yourself in a situation where that can happen.

IOW, "Don't fly in IMC"? I can see having a handheld GPS for redundancy, but
what is the usable range of a handheld radio, 5 miles?


In fact, self-flown business flights do not do this routinely, especially
in
single engine piston aircraft. They are less dangerous than personal
flights
because the pilots are better trained, the planes are better equipped, and
they are not going to kill themselves with low level VFR maneuvers, which
is
the biggest killer of GA pilots.

I think you're conflating "business flights" with "corporate aviation"
which is not a precise analogy.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

Well, that's not what I had in mind with the original description. All
of those instances have one thing in common; that the people who survived
were ALL still inside some part of the airplane.
What I was looking for was a "naked" fall (not inside a part of an
aircraft) of 20,000 without anything to hang onto.

MJC

"Peter Clark" wrote in message
...
Quite a few he http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/wreckage.html

The one I recalled without googling for it was the flight attendant.
Doesn't she hold a Guinness world record?

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:27:59 -0600, "MJC" wrote:

I'd sure like to know who survived a free fall from 20,000 feet without a
parachute.
Really, I'm curious.

MJC

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

Yes, and people have survived jumping out of the plane without a
parachute
at 20,000 feet, too. But the odds are against it. Personally, I think
the
way you deal with an electrical failure in IMC with no GPS or handheld
radio
is that you avoid putting yourself in a situation where that can
happen.

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...
C J Campbell wrote:
This comes very close to the category of a non-critical emergency,
defined
as an emergency where, no matter what you do, you are going to die.

That's a hell of a defeatist attitude, and demonstrably wrong since
people HAVE survived exactly this situation.


Yes, and people have survived jumping out of the plane without a
parachute
at 20,000 feet, too. But the odds are against it. Personally, I think
the
way you deal with an electrical failure in IMC with no GPS or handheld
radio
is that you avoid putting yourself in a situation where that can happen.

IOW, "Don't fly in IMC"? I can see having a handheld GPS for redundancy,
but
what is the usable range of a handheld radio, 5 miles?


I would not go so far as to say that. I am saying do not fly in solid IMC.
Punching through a layer, popping in and out of clouds, etc., is reasonable.


In fact, self-flown business flights do not do this routinely,
especially
in
single engine piston aircraft. They are less dangerous than personal
flights
because the pilots are better trained, the planes are better equipped,
and
they are not going to kill themselves with low level VFR maneuvers,
which
is
the biggest killer of GA pilots.

I think you're conflating "business flights" with "corporate aviation"
which is not a precise analogy.

Or at least Michael is.



--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"MJC" wrote in message
...
Well, that's not what I had in mind with the original description. All
of those instances have one thing in common; that the people who survived
were ALL still inside some part of the airplane.
What I was looking for was a "naked" fall (not inside a part of an
aircraft) of 20,000 without anything to hang onto.

MJC

So was I. However, that site lists some of those as "free fallers."

"David Rind" wrote in message
...
Roy Smith wrote:
Living near the coast (and a flat coastline too), I've often figured
in such a situation I'd dead-reckon out over the ocean, do a blind
letdown as low as I dared (500 MSL?) and hope I broke out. Then
scud-run back to land and hope I could find a coastal airport by
pilotage before I got run over by a jet. Or maybe land on the beach.

That's always been my idea of a final backup plan as well. (Total
electrical failure at the same time my handheld GPS fails seems pretty
unlikely, but you never know.) Why stop at 500 MSL, though? This seems
like pretty much your last out. Why not descend until you can see the
water (which, if you are really unlucky yet a third time on this flight,
will be when it hits your windshield). Unless you have some expectation
that you can stay up until the clouds break, what other choice is there?

From what I've read, this was standard technique in the early days of the
trans-Atlantic flying boats. I can't recall the title but I remember one
such story that had them dropping down at night to under 100' and turning
the landing lights on so they could see the ocean, in a big 4-engine flying
boat no less. Now that's scud running.

-cwk.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:26:58 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


"MJC" wrote in message
. ..
Well, that's not what I had in mind with the original description. All
of those instances have one thing in common; that the people who survived
were ALL still inside some part of the airplane.
What I was looking for was a "naked" fall (not inside a part of an
aircraft) of 20,000 without anything to hang onto.

MJC

So was I. However, that site lists some of those as "free fallers."

And as CJ pointed out, same site,
http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/ffallers.html has entries for two
falls from 20k and 22k, outside of the destroyed airframe, and
survived.

Have you ever read "Flying South" by Barbara Cushman Rowell? There's an
amazing story in there about flying up along the coast of Brazil at
100' MSL in the fog, a VFR pilot, trying to keep the coastline in sight
and find a place to land before she got lost in the fog.

this is an amazing book actually. It doesn't solely focus on flying
though. At the time they were flying "visually" but she and her
passenger/friend were both IFR pilots. I don't re-call the 100' MSL
though. I remember the next day or two when they took off again, in
the next harbor over, there were power lines up to 1000' or so.

Sadly, her and her husband (famous photographer Galen Rowell) died
in a Commander aircraft going from OAK to BIS a couple of years ago.

Gerald

Actually, it is DRAMATICALLY better than nothing. It is more
accurate,
more precise, and more reliable than any NDB and most VOR's.
NDB, yes. VOR, highly questionable.

You're welcome to call it highly questionable, but realize that most
aviation handhelds do offer self-monitoring that is significantly more
robust and sophisticated than VOR (which merely shows the presence of a
signal). VOR signals do some fascinating things when reflections are
an issue.

That's because they lack vacuum
Nonsense. Most of them have backup vacuum instruments and even have
dual
vacuum pumps, which older airplanes lack.

What piston single has backup vacuum and backup electric? I know the
Cirrus line has quite a bit of electrical redundancy, but it must,
being an all-electric airplane. I'm genuinely curious here - I don't
often fly anything built in this century.

In fact, self-flown business flights do not do this routinely,
especially in
single engine piston aircraft.

You know, when I fly IFR in my twin, there sure seem to be a lot of
Bonanzas and Centurions up there with me. Nobody I know cancels a
business trip in a Centurion or Bonanza because he will need to fly the
enroute portion in IMC, and I know quite a few people who use that kind
of airplane for business. That goes out the window if ice and/or
embedded T-storms are a factor, but there's really not much difference
between going on top vs through warm stratus. It's where the bases
are, and what is under them, that matters - especially in a single
engine airplane.

The real issues of IFR flight are widespread low IMC (especially in a
single - in a twin you can shoot an approach on one engine so it's not
so bad), T-storms, and ice. Differentiating between a flight where you
climb into the soup at 1200 ft, climb out at 2500, and fly the enroute
portion on top at 8000 vs one where you climb in at 1200 and fly in
solid soup at 8000 until you break out on the approach is, well,
amateur hour.

Being on top rather than in the soup doesn't actually help you in terms
of navigation, and nobody I know flies IMC in a plane where a single
point failure will take out all the gyros.

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...

That's because they lack vacuum
Nonsense. Most of them have backup vacuum instruments and even have
dual
vacuum pumps, which older airplanes lack.

What piston single has backup vacuum and backup electric?

All of the Cessna G1000 airplanes.