Gasohol

Given the issue with alcohol, and the fact it is injected at the
last stage - truck loading -- why aren't the STA owners such as EAA
running campaigns to set up procedures for FBO's to procure untainted
autogas?

I can see the average truck loading terminal saying "we can't do that"
until they get a memo saying that they can...



--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

David Lesher wrote:


This was obvious to many pilots & few ground-dwellers, but now many
of the tanks also have a cap on top to keep some of the rain and
snow out. I was looking for a GoogleMap photo and all the ones I
worked on are now capped.

Here's some uncaped ones.

http://tinyurl.com/ypupkd

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net writes:

David Lesher wrote:


This was obvious to many pilots & few ground-dwellers, but now many
of the tanks also have a cap on top to keep some of the rain and
snow out. I was looking for a GoogleMap photo and all the ones I
worked on are now capped.

Here's some uncaped ones.

http://tinyurl.com/ypupkd


and one photo I just found:

https://www.piersystem.com/posted/42...017.125127.JPG


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On Tue, 5 Jun 2007, Morgans wrote:

I did think I understood that the problem with gasohol for airplanes was
incompatibility with some rubber parts of the fuel system.

That's what I've always heard too, but I've never been able to get anyone
to back it up with info about SPECIFIC parts that are in danger. In
particular, I'd really like to know what SPECIFIC parts I have to change
in my IO-360-A1A's fuel system so I don't have to worry about alcohol.
(It's in an experimental, so legality isn't an issue.) At the same time,
I see all manner of decades-old cars & trucks running for many years on
gas that's part alcohol, with all original fuel system parts, with no ill
effects whatsoever. So I'm pretty close to writing off the whole ethanol
fuel system damage thing as an old wives' tale, but not yet willing to bet
the farm on it.

-Dan

"Dan Youngquist" wrote

That's what I've always heard too, but I've never been able to get anyone
to back it up with info about SPECIFIC parts that are in danger. In
particular, I'd really like to know what SPECIFIC parts I have to change
in my IO-360-A1A's fuel system so I don't have to worry about alcohol.
(It's in an experimental, so legality isn't an issue.)

Well, let's think about it.

I'm not an A&P, and have never torn an airplane carb or injector or fuel
pump, or ..... apart. Nevertheless, we can take some very educated guess,
and hopefully, some others with specific knowledge can jump in with some
specifics of the systems.

Let's look at the fuel system, from tank, all of the way until it goes
"bang." (the gas in the fuel system, that is!)

Fuel tank. Not a bladder, in an experimental, I would guess. Is it sloshed
sealed? Some sloshes will definitely NOT hold up to alcohol. Some will.
Is it sealed with other seam sealers? Again, some will hold up to alcohol,
and some will not. What did you use, if you did use them?

How about the seals or O-rings from the tank to fuel line fitting? What did
you use there? My suggestion for this, and most all of the other
replaceable parts, is to get an exact replacement and soak it in some E- 85.
If that does not cause the part to do strange things, 10% gasohol should not
cause a problem.

Fuel line, and flexible transitions, if used? Again, test what you used, or
find the manufacturer's recommendations, based on tests.

Fuel Valve. Lots of O-rings, there. Will they test alright?

Oh, back up. Fuel level indication sender, or sight glass and connections.
Test them.

Fuel pump, both electric auxiliary, and engine driven fuel pump. Use
manufacturer's recommendations, as there are so many variables, possibly
more in an electric. The engine driven pump recommendations will probably
not allow gasohol, but you, or someone who knows how could tear one down,
and soak test all of the non metal parts.

Gasolater and other filters. Test, to verify they will hold up.

Injector controls, spiders, and O-rings in all of these should be verified.
All of the non metal parts if it is a carburetor, for some people.

Then the injectors themselves will need a manufacturer's recommendation, or
a test.

Does that cover it all? What did I miss?

How about everyone, and you, Dan? Do you think this kind of step by step
investigation would uncover all of the weak parts, and prove them OK, or
vulerenable?

Is it all worth it? That would be a question you would have to answer.

Perhaps another valid approach would be to contact groups that have flown
gasohol, or pure ethanol airplanes. The EAA has done it; are there other
groups that have? Would they be willing to share what they have learned?

I await everyone's opinions. I agree with the premise that I think Dan has;
that it should be possible, and practical to develop a gasohol safe
airplane. "Some will no doubt shout, you will crash and burn!"

This could be an interesting discussion.
--
Jim in NC

"David Lesher" wrote in message
...


Given the issue with alcohol, and the fact it is injected at the
last stage - truck loading -- why aren't the STA owners such as EAA
running campaigns to set up procedures for FBO's to procure untainted
autogas?

I can see the average truck loading terminal saying "we can't do that"
until they get a memo saying that they can...



--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

I really doubt that the terminal operators are so ignorant as to make that a
problem.

OTOH, there are some real problems for the FBO to overcome. One FBO owner,
who I know, stopped selling gasolene several years ago--saying that he
sometimes suspected that he lost more to evaporation than he pumped. That
was certainly an exageration, but the point was well made that the sales did
not justify the overhead--so now he only pumps Jet A, and gasolen powered
aircraft must taxi elsewhere on the field for their fuel. For many, if not
most, E-zero mogas would be an additional grade of fuel in a low volume
market--and one which would require additional infrastructure, and also
licensing, maintenance, and inspection of same.

Obviously, many also operate rental aircraft which they would prefer to run
on the most appropriate fuel. However, untill we are willing to guarantee
them a reasonable volume of sales, I don't see how they can do it. (They to
never bet on another man's game, but I will hazard a guess that an FBO needs
to use a full devivery every other month to keep the product available--and
at least twice that much to offer it at a competitive price. Any
requirement for above ground storage may also increase the required volume.)

Just my $0.02
Peter

In rec.aviation.owning Morgans wrote:

snip

I await everyone's opinions. I agree with the premise that I think Dan has;
that it should be possible, and practical to develop a gasohol safe
airplane. "Some will no doubt shout, you will crash and burn!"

This could be an interesting discussion.

Since Embraer has an alcohol fueled aircraft in production, it is
obviously possible.

http://www.defesanet.com.br/embraer/ipanema1000th.htm

The question then becomes what would it take to retrofit an existing
aircraft?


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

"Dan Youngquist" wrote in message
hell.org...
On Tue, 5 Jun 2007, Morgans wrote:

I did think I understood that the problem with gasohol for airplanes was incompatibility with some rubber parts of
the fuel system.

That's what I've always heard too, but I've never been able to get anyone to back it up with info about SPECIFIC parts
that are in danger. In particular, I'd really like to know what SPECIFIC parts I have to change in my IO-360-A1A's
fuel system so I don't have to worry about alcohol. (It's in an experimental, so legality isn't an issue.) At the
same time, I see all manner of decades-old cars & trucks running for many years on gas that's part alcohol, with all
original fuel system parts, with no ill effects whatsoever. So I'm pretty close to writing off the whole ethanol fuel
system damage thing as an old wives' tale, but not yet willing to bet the farm on it.

-Dan

Fuel tank sealer (aka Proseal), fuel hoses, tank floats, carb floats, etc.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message ups.com...
Not looking for water, we're looking for alcohol...

Actually many of us are curious about each, and some of use would be
interested to know both.

That is the supposed beauty of Alka Seltzer, is that it fizzes on both
water *and* alcohol...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


Your alka seltzer fizzes in water. It all by itself does not detect alcohol...

"Blueskies"
Fuel tank sealer (aka Proseal), fuel hoses, tank floats, carb floats, etc.


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