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#21
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A prospective
instrument pilot ought to be able to pass his or her checkride without the assistance of a moving map. I completely agree. I'll bet back in the days of NDB and Lorenz 33 MHz Radio Range, pilots were saying the same thing about VOR's. Thanks for that! -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
#22
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On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:13:03 GMT, Greg Esres
wrote: Examiners are not allowed to create their own PTS by asking applicants to perform tasks according to what he thinks an app;icant "out to be able" to do. Emphatically agree. Examiners are expressly forbidden from making up their own checkrides. A FSDO should enforce this; if they don't, go to OK City. Exactly. And any pilot and/or instructor who allows the practice without objection becomes part of the problem |
#23
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Ok, let me throw another bone at the group. Where I often train we
have a VOR and NDB approach to the same runway as the ILS. The courses are identical. In an aircraft with 2 VOR recievers is is appropriate for the examiner to require the applicate to turn off or disable the VOR Tracking the ILS? Or even the Marker Beacons. If the examiner can not require this, then how does the the Examiner know if the applicant is actually flying the VOR approach as if it were the only approach available as is the case at many other airports? Or is the applicant simply using the LOC aids to make a really good VOR Approach? If the PTS requires the applicant to demonstrate a Non-precision approach and a NDB approach is selected. I think it is very appropriate for the examiner to disable any instrument that the applicant might use in lew of the required instruments. Otherwise how does the examiner know if the applicant really knows how to shoot that approach properly or if you are just good at faking it using other instruments (GPS)(LOC)(VOR). On the other hand as a CFII I tend to look for how many of these aids the applicant uses. The more he uses to verify he is doing the approach properly the better situational awareness he will have. But I also want to ensure that when the GPS screen goes blank (I have had that happen with a panel mounted IFR GPS) that they can still safely get back on the ground. Brian CFIIG/ASEL wrote in message . .. I went back and re-read the PTS. I don't see anything that says the examiner must (or even can) turn off the moving map. It says that one approach must be foown without the primary electronic flight instruments if they are installed. The GPS is a navigation system, not a flight instrument. Therefore I don't see where an examiner gets to turn it off any more than he gets to turn a VOR radio of during a partial panel approach. It is not a part of partial panel testing, as near as I can see. Any agreement/disagreement with this from any examiners out there? On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:33:04 -0800, "C J Campbell" wrote: wrote in message .. . Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant changes in the new PTS? For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the approaches? No. However, the examiner may turn it off as part of a partial panel approach. One approach must be flown with glass cockpit displays or moving map displays turned off, if possible, but that does not necessarily mean that the GPS must be turned off. If the aircraft is equipped with GPS, one approach must be a GPS approach. If the aircraft has an autopilot, at least one approach must be flown with the autopilot coupled. I know one examiner who expects candidates to use the GPS and autopilot on every approach unless the examiner has specifically told them not to. |
#25
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#26
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#27
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#28
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#29
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wrote in message ... Actually, they don't. They seem to, because so few are willing to challenge their authority. I remember back a few years ago soon after the PTS was changed and specific holding pattern entries were dropped. An examiner insisted on the "proper" entry, and failed the task. He was forced to reverse himself when it was challenged with the FSDO. This is quite a different situation. Dropping the requirement to use specific holding pattern entries is not at all ambiguous and leaves no doubt as to the intent of the PTS authors. Failing someone simply because they didn't do a teardrop entry clearly contradicts both the spirit and the letter of the law. Most laws and I suspect the PTS are written largely in response to challenges. It may be that the PTS are not specific with regards to moving maps simply because no one has forced the question yet. As for which way OK City would rule on the matter, flip a coin. It's certainly going to get more complicated as we move beyond aircraft with one little GPS in the panel to 172s with G1000s. Edmund Burke said, "We must bear with infirmities until they fester into crimes." I have a hard time seeing too much evil in this topic since I don't find it at all unreasonable for a student to execute non-GPS approaches without a moving map. Maybe that's silly in an SR-22 where the only way you lose a moving map is to lose all your radios, but it's not in my 172, which features 2 NAV/COMs, an ADF, and a Loran. A pilot who flew IFR only in the SR-22 would likely feel a little lonely at first in my 172 and I'd certainly need some time to learn how all those doodads worked in the Cirrus. In the big-plane world they handle this by making everyone get a type rating, and with FITS and the insurance companies it seems this is the direction we're headed in GA as well. -cwk. |
#30
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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:50:27 GMT, "C Kingsbury"
wrote: wrote in message .. . Actually, they don't. They seem to, because so few are willing to challenge their authority. I remember back a few years ago soon after the PTS was changed and specific holding pattern entries were dropped. An examiner insisted on the "proper" entry, and failed the task. He was forced to reverse himself when it was challenged with the FSDO. This is quite a different situation. Dropping the requirement to use specific holding pattern entries is not at all ambiguous and leaves no doubt as to the intent of the PTS authors. Failing someone simply because they didn't do a teardrop entry clearly contradicts both the spirit and the letter of the law. Most laws and I suspect the PTS are written largely in response to challenges. It may be that the PTS are not specific with regards to moving maps simply because no one has forced the question yet. As for which way OK City would rule on the matter, flip a coin. It's certainly going to get more complicated as we move beyond aircraft with one little GPS in the panel to 172s with G1000s. I suspect that if the FAA wished to have any applicant tested without a moving map, they could have simply stated so in the PTS. Your position opens all kinds of doors that were meant to be closed by publishing standards in the first place. Edmund Burke said, "We must bear with infirmities until they fester into crimes." I have a hard time seeing too much evil in this topic since I don't find it at all unreasonable for a student to execute non-GPS approaches without a moving map. Maybe that's silly in an SR-22 where the only way you lose a moving map is to lose all your radios, but it's not in my 172, which features 2 NAV/COMs, an ADF, and a Loran. A pilot who flew IFR only in the SR-22 would likely feel a little lonely at first in my 172 and I'd certainly need some time to learn how all those doodads worked in the Cirrus. In the big-plane world they handle this by making everyone get a type rating, and with FITS and the insurance companies it seems this is the direction we're headed in GA as well. -cwk. |
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