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How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?



 
 
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  #161  
Old September 8th 15, 09:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 3:39:08 AM UTC+3, David Hirst wrote:
If numbers are increasing then why on earth would you train in 2-33's? Hell, I don't know why you do it NOW -- most of the rest of the world has been training in glass for several decades.


In a lot of the world, including clubs in NZ, numbers are static or declining. This means that the fixed costs per head are increasing; a big lump of that is insurance and maintenance. Clubs with older non-glass gliders (i.e. Puchatek, ASK13, Ka7, 2-33) have much lower insurance costs and the gliders are (relatively) cheap to repair. This keeps the smaller clubs in the black - THAT's why clubs keep training in older gliders.


Looking at the annual accounts, insurance on the DG1000s isn't even close to being a major factor.

It's the tow plane that eats all the money. And next is the rent for the land our clubhouse and hangars sit on and the landing fees and control tower fees. Those are 10x bigger than the glider insurance.

We're in the process of moving to an airfield we'll own ourselves -- or at least have a 99 year lease on -- with 2 km of space to play in. And we're getting a brand new european winch. That and new buildings are costing a bit up front, but hopefully will reduce the costs in future.
  #162  
Old September 8th 15, 10:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Whisky
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Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

Am Dienstag, 8. September 2015 00:30:50 UTC+2 schrieb C-FFKQ (42):
On Monday, 7 September 2015 07:19:10 UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
Is anyone doing basic training in Duos? The DG1000 is just fine (especially with the 18m tips). The Duo would be no problem in the air, but unsprung undercarriage doesn't seem like a good idea for student landings.


Bruce, how many flights does it take to get to solo using the DG1000 ?

At my club, we have a youth camp of 3 weeks duration where we train using 2-33's. We solo our kids usually around 24-28 flights. The 2-33 is a tough ship and can handle the abuse, a great workhorse.


I've been training ab-initio students in Ka7, Twin Astir, Janus B and ASK21, and I haven't seen any significant difference in how long it takes to solo.

I can't imagine how you would attract people to gliding if you offering them to train in a 2-33... It's the year 2015. ASK21 are very tough workhorses, and an repairs on glass ships are *much* easier and faster done than on wood and fabric. That's one of the main reasons clubs in Europe changed from training in Ka7 and ASK13 to ASK21 - almost maintainance free, and cheap to repair.

But I guess that states of mind are quite different on both sides on the pond: From what I learned, you can get a glider licence in the US without having thermalled once, and you can be trained by instructors who have no XC experience at all. In Europe, that would just be impossible.

We typically try to "snatch" the youngsters, starting from age 14, and we offer them training up to their first 50 or 100 km solo (well, we have to as it is mandatory). And we don't teach people to glide, but to soar. A 2h solo flight is mandatory before they move on to initial XC training.

All of this is not seen as "additional barrier", but part of the game.
And we dont threat them with 2-33 or 1-26. In modest clubs, a beginner is trained in an ASK13 and then moves on to Ka8 and Ka6, and then relatively quickly to some glass club class glider. In my club, our fleet is 2x ASK21, 2x DuoDiscus, 2x LS4 and 2x LS-18-18 for about 50 actively flying members, and days where you won't get a seat in one of these ships are extremely ra There are about 15 private ships owned by club members. We have a total of 9 instructors, all with XC experience, two of them doing 700 km through the Alps on a regular basis.

And no, we don't have the problem that our membership is declining.
  #163  
Old September 8th 15, 01:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

So what sort of fee structure do you have at your club to support all of those aircraft? Initial buy in cost? Monthly dues? Price per tow? Price for use of each plane?

2-33: $8-10k
ASK21: $80k (???)
Duo: $100k
LS4: $40k



In my club, our fleet is 2x ASK21, 2x DuoDiscus, 2x LS4 and 2x LS-18-18 for about 50 actively flying members, and days where you won't get a seat in one of these ships are extremely ra There are about 15 private ships owned by club members. We have a total of 9 instructors, all with XC experience, two of them doing 700 km through the Alps on a regular basis.

And no, we don't have the problem that our membership is declining.


  #164  
Old September 8th 15, 02:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Whisky
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Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

If you want to be a member, you need to buy a share worth $400. If you want to leave, the club will buy it back at the same price. (I take 1 CHF = 1 US$).
Annual membership fee is $500-600.
Cost per hour is $20-40. However, you can buy 30h block for $700, or unlimited hours for $1400.
Tows are expensive because (1) we pay the fuel with $10/gal or more, and (2) we have to get from 400m MSL to 2000m MSL in order to connect with thermals. At $5-6/min, a tow is typically $100. Early students pay $30-40 for their 600m AGL tows. We can't operate a winch on our field (700 m rwy, gliders, SEP, helicopters, commercial parachuting operation, high-power lines parallel to the runway).
Each member is required to supervise operations for 1 or 2 days per season (that is, making sure that things run well on the ground). That does not include instruction. Each member is also required to participate 1 weekend per winter in glider maintainance (it typicall takes a team of 4 for 1.5 days to do annual maintainance of one glider).
Instructors don't do ground service or maintainance (well, they are at least not required to...), but they spent 5-10 days per season instructing. Instruction is for free.
We sell introductory rides (something like $200 for 1 hour); that and the tows is what brings in the biggest part of the funds.

Bert
Ventus cM TW

Am Dienstag, 8. September 2015 14:38:38 UTC+2 schrieb :
So what sort of fee structure do you have at your club to support all of those aircraft? Initial buy in cost? Monthly dues? Price per tow? Price for use of each plane?

2-33: $8-10k
ASK21: $80k (???)
Duo: $100k
LS4: $40k

  #165  
Old September 8th 15, 02:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ND
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Posts: 314
Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 12:12:20 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 11:51:06 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:

Zero Macready? Really? May I suggest you read up a little more on the theory and practice of Macready settings. Reichman is good, also John Cochrane's articles at http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...ring/index.htm


I understand that Zero Macready is totally wimpy, not flying XC, but it gives me a good chance of not landing out, and that is my priority. Having lots of fun though.



What he's saying is that it's fine to fly zero MacCready speed, as long as that's not the setting you have input in the box. you want to have something like 2-4 MacCready in the box, and then fly slower than what it's suggesting. that's what gives you an altitude margin.

I watched a kid scrape in realllly low on a final glide and basically do a straight in once, because he input zero maccready then flew 70knots all the way home. he was briefed on maccready after landing.
  #166  
Old September 8th 15, 02:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean Fidler
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Posts: 1,005
Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

We need to inspire our Jr glider pilots to go beyond a "pattern license." Most of them never actually experience "true soaring!" This is our fault. At current, the goal we set for these pilots is achieving a "glider license" which actually includes zero cross country skills, training or experience. The goal should be (for all clubs, all instructors and all commercial operations) to get all new glider pilots (especially Jrs) comfortable, confident and p
PROFICIENT with flying cross country. Sure, some are not going to achieve this goal. So what?

Clubs, in my opinion, are almost exclusively focused on rides and basic training (no cross country). In fact, most U.S. Soaring Clubs have almost zero interest in inspiring or developing cross country skills for their students. In order to improve on our present course, U.S. clubs must be re-tooled and refocused on a new goal (less trainers, more cross country able gliders for members to train in and rent). When a new student comes along, the conversation should not be how do we get you your glider license, it should be how do we build you into a cross country soaring pilot capable of competing in your first soaring contest! The license itself should not be the goal, the first 100km solo cross country should be the goal!

Train how you fight, fight how you train. This is such a fantastic quote, perhaps the best I have ever learned. In other words, we are getting exactly what we are asking for in U.S. soaring circles today. We are getting pattern pilots who do not stick with or progress further in the sport. It is no surprise that pilots move on when the sport (for them) is limited to flying around the home airport. Most new glider pilots in the U.S., unsurprisingly, eventually get bored and go do something else. We wonder why we are failing (in terms of growth and development) and why all the effort we are putting into basic training at our clubs is producing fewer pilots who stick with a sport which is, to them, essentially pattern sleigh rides.

Glider clubs build their "business" on whipping new students (members) thru this primary training cycle. They are happy as pigs in mud when the gliders are flying locally and generally have no concerns that no cross country is being conducted. In fact, many clubs actively discourage cross country ("in club ships"). Heaven forbid a "club" glider is not on the ground for the next revenue producing rental time!

We need to fundemetally chance our priorities, mindset and strategy. We need to change almost everything about our current way of thinking about glider training. Clubs, instructors and especially the SSA's goals and strategy. We are a marketing disaster that should be taught in graduate schools actually. On so many levels...

Again, Great Britain just hosted its nearly 70 strong youth gliding national championship. They have this kind of attendance year after year! Meanwhile, the USA does not even have a single Jr soaring event and the USA has only a handful of youth pilots who are capable of contest or real cross country soaring. In short, WE SUCK! Can anyone tell me when the last Jr contest was held in the USA? The USA is SIX TIMES the size of the UK. So don't tell me geography. We should have 6 regional youth events of equal size (NE, SE, S, NC, NW, SW) in the USA just to be equal to Britian. Don't tell me we can't. We have not even tried.

The first step is holding on US Jr Nationals with 20 pilots in 2016. An achievable goal.

The second step is "changing the guard" and getting some new leadership capable of truly inspiring our youth pilots to go further and motivate them to take the sport of soaring to its full potential. This is at every club and within the SSA. Does your club leadership have a cross country development strategy? Does your club even care about cross country or is cross country entirely outside of their focus? Does your club have statistics on cross country utilization? A strategy? Youth? Adult? What percentage of newly licensed pilots achieve a cross country badge in the first 1-2 years after being licensed? Is your club a success or a failure?

Unfortunately, right now, cross country training is far beyond the capabilities and comfort zones of most clubs and instructors. We have to begin digging out of this hole someday. Why not start now?

Or, just stay the course? Keep bumbling along into oblivion.

Will 2016 be any different that 2015? I wonder...
  #167  
Old September 8th 15, 03:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean Fidler
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Posts: 1,005
Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

We need to consider strongly inspiring our Jr glider students to go beyond a "pattern license." In fact, we need to standardize our training to make achievement of cross-country proficiency the goal rather than something that we might do later in life! Most U.S. glider students never actually experience "true soaring!" It is our fault that this is happening. At current, the goal we set for these pilots is achieving a "glider license" that includes zero cross-country skills, training or experience. The goal should be (for all clubs, instructors, and all commercial operations) to get all new glider pilots (especially Jrs) comfortable, confident and PROFICIENT with flying cross-country. Sure, some are not going to achieve this goal. So what? Let's aim higher. Much higher.

Gliding clubs are focused on rides and basic training (no cross-country). What a tragedy. In fact, most U.S. Soaring Clubs have almost zero interest in inspiring or developing cross-country skills for their students or newly licensed pilots. U.S. clubs must be re-tooled and refocused on an entirely new training goal. We need fewer trainers and more cross-country capable gliders for members to train in and rent. The conversation should not be how do we get you your glider license, it should be how do we build you into a cross-country soaring pilot capable of competing in your first soaring contest! The glider license itself should not be the goal, the first 100km solo cross-country should be the goal. We are capable of SO MUCH MORE than we are currently achieving.

Train how you fight, fight how you train. Such a fantastic quote, perhaps the best I have ever learned. In other words, we are getting what we are asking for in U.S. soaring circles today. We are getting pattern pilots who do not stick with or progress further into the sport of soaring. They get bored. It is no surprise that pilots move on when the sport consists of flying near the home airport. We wonder why we are failing (in terms of growth and development) and why all the effort we are putting into basic training at our clubs is producing fewer pilots who stick with a sport which is, to them, essentially pattern sleigh rides. We wonder why we are failing yet we have not changed the way we do things, in the slightest. We need to stop measuring how many new glider pilots were licensed this season. We need to start measuring ourselves by how many new cross-country pilots were developed this season! Clearly, how many licenses we complete is entirely irrelevant to U.S. soaring health.

Glider clubs literally build their "business" on whipping new students (members) thru the primary training cycle. The old guard within most soaring clubs are happy as pigs in "mud" when their club gliders are flying locally. Generally, they have little focus on if cross-country is being conducted. In fact, many clubs actively discourage cross-country soaring ("in club ships"). Heaven forbid a "club" glider is not on the ground on time for the next revenue producing rental! Blasphemy!

We need to fundamentally change our priorities, our mindset, and our strategy. We need to change almost everything about our current way of thinking about glider training. This includes our clubs, instructors and especially the SSA's goals and strategy. US Soaring is a marketing disaster that should be studied at graduate schools. On so many levels...

Again, Great Britain just hosted it's nearly 70 strong youth gliding national championship. They appear to have strong Jr. attendance year after year and an armada of young, highly capable cross country pilots being developed year after year! Meanwhile, the USA does not host even have a single Jr soaring event. The USA has only a handful of youth pilots who are capable of entering a contest. In short, WE SUCK!

Can anyone tell me when the last Jr contest was held in the USA? The USA is SIX TIMES the size of the UK. So don't tell me geography. We could have 6 regional youth events of equal size (NE, SE, S, NC, NW, SW) in the USA just to be equal to Britain. Don't tell me we can't do this. Of course we can. We simply do not try anymore. We are simply not focused on youth soaring. We are simply not very bright.

The first step is setting a goal to hold on US Junior Nationals with 20 pilots in 2016. A very achievable goal. All US clubs should share this goal. We need to make this happen. In time, this Junior event should be our most important of all contests, and it should be how we measure the health of our sport. The second step is "changing the guard" and getting some new leadership capable of truly inspiring our youth pilots to go further and motivate them to take the sport of soaring to its full potential. The fact that we still have embedded leadership that is not focused on growing youth contests in the US is unacceptable. Does your club leadership have a cross-country development strategy? Does your club even care about cross-country or is cross-country entirely outside of their focus? Does your club keep statistics on cross-country utilization? A strategy? Youth? Adult? How many of your clubs instructors are proficient cross-country pilots? What percentage of newly licensed pilots (from your clubs training program) achieve a cross-country badge in the first 1-2 years after being licensed? How does your club measure success? Is your club a success or a failure?

Unfortunately, right now, effective cross-country training is far beyond the capabilities and comfort zones of many instructors. We have to begin digging out of this hole someday. Why not start now?

Or, just stay the course? Keep doing what we are doing now? Keep bumbling along into oblivion.

Will 2016 be any different that 2015? Will we develop a meaningful strategy? I wonder...

Great Britain sure seems to be showing us how it is done...
  #168  
Old September 8th 15, 04:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ND
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Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 7:47:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I don't think soaring needs to grow much. We don't need, and don't have the capacity for lots of pilots. What we need are a handful of obsessed pilots. Obsessed soaring pilots make the wheel go round. Said this before the big recruitment hurdle is cultural, men no longer command their recreational time. Pool to chose from is never married chaps with no girlfriend or kids or old guys with grown kids.


i don't agree with the last two sentences at all. our club has several family guys who take up soaring. a family woman too... and guess what, her KIDS started flying too. so i vehemently disagree. i'm going to get married next year, and i'll have kids too. does that mean i have to quit flying? i dont think so. i recognize that i'm someone who already is engrossed before family and marriage, but my partner in our ASW 20 learned to fly with two kids in highschool, and is happily married. i think your perception of our pool to draw from is incredibly black and white, and inaccurate as well.
  #169  
Old September 8th 15, 04:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Carlyle
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Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

Sean, while much of your analysis is correct you're discounting a huge factor - club income. If US clubs continue with their current business plans and switch to the XC mode you suggest, they'll go broke. If you can post a different business plan that keeps clubs on a solid financial footing I'm sure it would receive great attention.

-John, Q3

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 10:57:15 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
We need to consider strongly inspiring our Jr glider students to go beyond a "pattern license." In fact, we need to standardize our training to make achievement of cross-country proficiency the goal rather than something that we might do later in life! Most U.S. glider students never actually experience "true soaring!" It is our fault that this is happening. At current, the goal we set for these pilots is achieving a "glider license" that includes zero cross-country skills, training or experience. The goal should be (for all clubs, instructors, and all commercial operations) to get all new glider pilots (especially Jrs) comfortable, confident and PROFICIENT with flying cross-country. Sure, some are not going to achieve this goal. So what? Let's aim higher. Much higher.

Gliding clubs are focused on rides and basic training (no cross-country). What a tragedy. In fact, most U.S. Soaring Clubs have almost zero interest in inspiring or developing cross-country skills for their students or newly licensed pilots. U.S. clubs must be re-tooled and refocused on an entirely new training goal. We need fewer trainers and more cross-country capable gliders for members to train in and rent. The conversation should not be how do we get you your glider license, it should be how do we build you into a cross-country soaring pilot capable of competing in your first soaring contest! The glider license itself should not be the goal, the first 100km solo cross-country should be the goal. We are capable of SO MUCH MORE than we are currently achieving.

Train how you fight, fight how you train. Such a fantastic quote, perhaps the best I have ever learned. In other words, we are getting what we are asking for in U.S. soaring circles today. We are getting pattern pilots who do not stick with or progress further into the sport of soaring. They get bored. It is no surprise that pilots move on when the sport consists of flying near the home airport. We wonder why we are failing (in terms of growth and development) and why all the effort we are putting into basic training at our clubs is producing fewer pilots who stick with a sport which is, to them, essentially pattern sleigh rides. We wonder why we are failing yet we have not changed the way we do things, in the slightest. We need to stop measuring how many new glider pilots were licensed this season. We need to start measuring ourselves by how many new cross-country pilots were developed this season! Clearly, how many licenses we complete is entirely irrelevant to U.S. soaring health.

Glider clubs literally build their "business" on whipping new students (members) thru the primary training cycle. The old guard within most soaring clubs are happy as pigs in "mud" when their club gliders are flying locally. Generally, they have little focus on if cross-country is being conducted. In fact, many clubs actively discourage cross-country soaring ("in club ships"). Heaven forbid a "club" glider is not on the ground on time for the next revenue producing rental! Blasphemy!

We need to fundamentally change our priorities, our mindset, and our strategy. We need to change almost everything about our current way of thinking about glider training. This includes our clubs, instructors and especially the SSA's goals and strategy. US Soaring is a marketing disaster that should be studied at graduate schools. On so many levels...

Again, Great Britain just hosted it's nearly 70 strong youth gliding national championship. They appear to have strong Jr. attendance year after year and an armada of young, highly capable cross country pilots being developed year after year! Meanwhile, the USA does not host even have a single Jr soaring event. The USA has only a handful of youth pilots who are capable of entering a contest. In short, WE SUCK!

Can anyone tell me when the last Jr contest was held in the USA? The USA is SIX TIMES the size of the UK. So don't tell me geography. We could have 6 regional youth events of equal size (NE, SE, S, NC, NW, SW) in the USA just to be equal to Britain. Don't tell me we can't do this. Of course we can. We simply do not try anymore. We are simply not focused on youth soaring. We are simply not very bright.

The first step is setting a goal to hold on US Junior Nationals with 20 pilots in 2016. A very achievable goal. All US clubs should share this goal. We need to make this happen. In time, this Junior event should be our most important of all contests, and it should be how we measure the health of our sport. The second step is "changing the guard" and getting some new leadership capable of truly inspiring our youth pilots to go further and motivate them to take the sport of soaring to its full potential. The fact that we still have embedded leadership that is not focused on growing youth contests in the US is unacceptable. Does your club leadership have a cross-country development strategy? Does your club even care about cross-country or is cross-country entirely outside of their focus? Does your club keep statistics on cross-country utilization? A strategy? Youth? Adult? How many of your clubs instructors are proficient cross-country pilots? What percentage of newly licensed pilots (from your clubs training program) achieve a cross-country badge in the first 1-2 years after being licensed? How does your club measure success? Is your club a success or a failure?

Unfortunately, right now, effective cross-country training is far beyond the capabilities and comfort zones of many instructors. We have to begin digging out of this hole someday. Why not start now?

Or, just stay the course? Keep doing what we are doing now? Keep bumbling along into oblivion.

Will 2016 be any different that 2015? Will we develop a meaningful strategy? I wonder...

Great Britain sure seems to be showing us how it is done...


  #170  
Old September 8th 15, 04:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 961
Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 6:03:21 PM UTC+3, Dan Marotta wrote:
Where are you?




On 9/8/2015 1:09 AM, Bruce Hoult wrote:



On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 3:39:08 AM UTC+3, David Hirst wrote:



If numbers are increasing then why on earth would you train in 2-33's? Hell, I don't know why you do it NOW -- most of the rest of the world has been training in glass for several decades.


In a lot of the world, including clubs in NZ, numbers are static or declining. This means that the fixed costs per head are increasing; a big lump of that is insurance and maintenance. Clubs with older non-glass gliders (i.e. Puchatek, ASK13, Ka7, 2-33) have much lower insurance costs and the gliders are (relatively) cheap to repair. This keeps the smaller clubs in the black - THAT's why clubs keep training in older gliders.


Looking at the annual accounts, insurance on the DG1000s isn't even close to being a major factor.

It's the tow plane that eats all the money. And next is the rent for the land our clubhouse and hangars sit on and the landing fees and control tower fees. Those are 10x bigger than the glider insurance.

We're in the process of moving to an airfield we'll own ourselves -- or at least have a 99 year lease on -- with 2 km of space to play in. And we're getting a brand new european winch. That and new buildings are costing a bit up front, but hopefully will reduce the costs in future.


Wrong question :-)

I've been in Moscow for the last four months and for probably the next couple of years.

My gliding club, which I was writing about above, is in New Zealand.
 




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