How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

I recall the joy of simply staying up! Seeing how high I could get -
even getting higher than my instructor who was up with another student.
But that soon became old hat. Already having an ATP license, I took the
commercial glider check ride and was, for a while, happy with giving
rides, but that, too, got old.

Then I moved to a club which had a lot of private owners and XC pilots.
I recall sitting on the porch with them at the end of the day sipping a
cold one and listening to their stories. The spark was ignited! I
simply had to get my own ship and learn how to fly cross country.

It seems that, nowadays, most people who come to the airport are simply
looking to add another token to their bucket of adventures and move on
to the next. It's very sad. Still, I take the time to talk with each
of them, answer their questions, point to the mountains and tell them
how wonderful it is to soar over there and spend the day enjoying the
scenery, and the wonder of having an eagle fly along side (or out climb
me!).

Dan
5J
choices at my club. Fly Schweizers locally, spend 20k+ on a glass
ship you
don't know how to fly, quit, teach others how to do take offs and
landings
in a 2-33. That last option is the real root of the problem. The core of
our nation's clubs and greatest influence on those new to soaring never
learned to actually soar! Until x/c is a requirement only people with
time,
money, and the ability to self teach will be able to it. (Old retired
guys)...

And the argument has previously been made that increasing the barriers
to obtaining a license (cost, time, etc.) has its own discouraging
effects. Consider your own paradox: "Until x/c is a requirement only
people with time,
money, and the ability to self teach will be able to it."

I doubt the perpetual chicken-or-egg conundrum as it applies to
soaring will (or can) ever be satisfactorily laid to rest. That said,
learning to soar and learning how to fly XC are different - if
complementary - skills. Knowing how to soar is a prerequisite to
flying XC; not true the other way around...

Somehow, despite doing all my primary training and obtaining my
private pilot (glider-only) license in a club having only a 2-33 and a
1-26 and but one instructor (not mine) with any XC experience, the "XC
seed" was planted and took root in my mind even before I'd taken my
first lesson. How? My officemate was an XC glider pilot, and from
breeze-shooting with him as well as accompanying him to do glass
repairs on the gear doors/belly of the Libelle of the one instructor
with XC experience - land-out-induced damage (really!) - as well
(perhaps) as my innately realizing flagpole sitting as an idea seemed
boring merely as an idea, "it was obvious" to me that my PP(Glider)
certificate was but a license to learn without always having an
instructor in the back. Point being that it was the *idea* of XC that
was the crucial part of the picture for me. And the idea cost me
nothing but some enjoyable breeeze-shooting and hanging out time.

I actually obtained my license before ever soaring (i.e. climbing) on
my own, and only once experienced my instructor climbing in a thermal,
so I suppose my second point is that *neither* soaring nor XC need be
crucial elements of obtaining one's license...while the *ideas* of
both, most certainly *are* crucial elements to going XC in a
glider...and opening one door to a lifetime of (good!) life-altering
experiences. How a person thinks, matters!

Bob W.

Where are you?

On 9/8/2015 1:09 AM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 3:39:08 AM UTC+3, David Hirst wrote:
If numbers are increasing then why on earth would you train in 2-33's? Hell, I don't know why you do it NOW -- most of the rest of the world has been training in glass for several decades.
In a lot of the world, including clubs in NZ, numbers are static or declining. This means that the fixed costs per head are increasing; a big lump of that is insurance and maintenance. Clubs with older non-glass gliders (i.e. Puchatek, ASK13, Ka7, 2-33) have much lower insurance costs and the gliders are (relatively) cheap to repair. This keeps the smaller clubs in the black - THAT's why clubs keep training in older gliders.
Looking at the annual accounts, insurance on the DG1000s isn't even close to being a major factor.

It's the tow plane that eats all the money. And next is the rent for the land our clubhouse and hangars sit on and the landing fees and control tower fees. Those are 10x bigger than the glider insurance.

We're in the process of moving to an airfield we'll own ourselves -- or at least have a 99 year lease on -- with 2 km of space to play in. And we're getting a brand new european winch. That and new buildings are costing a bit up front, but hopefully will reduce the costs in future.

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 9:57:15 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:

Sean, look at a map of the US and of England. Take a guess at the density of junior pilots. The reason they can get the numbers (aside from a much more social club environment, I agree) is that they are a lot closer to the racing venue - If every junior pilot in the US could get to a Junior contest with a club or loaned glider within a day's drive, we would see the same or better numbers!

And you are getting a bit tiring, up on your soap box. NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO FLY XC, MUCH LESS RACE! Most of our long time club members, including private owners of some nice glass, have no desire to stress out flying XC. And they are perfectly happy (and pretty good pilots).

Personally, I agree with you that XC and racing is most fun in soaring, along with acro, intro rides for grandmas who have never flown, end of day sled rides with the wife in glassy air as the sun goes down - hmm, I guess it's all good!

Oh, and "low approaches, circling to land..." ;^)

My solution? It's the social aspect, not the flying. THAT'S THE BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EURO AND MOST US CLUBS! We need nice, appealing facilities more than we need nicer gliders; we need clubhouses with bars (or even restaurants), weekend sleeping accommodations, nice areas to park the RVs, things for the spouses and kids to do - When the locals stop by to sit in the shade, sip a cold one, and watch the pretty shiny gliders fly, then you are on the right track!

Kirk
66

Focusing on the strategies employed by Great Britain or Germany is misguided, because the proximal problems for U.S. Juniors are distal problems to European Juniors. The proximal problems for U.S. Juniors, which need to be addressed before the British/German strategies are viable, a

1. Travel. You need to shrink the continental U.S. (3 million sq. miles) by 98.3% for it to be the same size as England (50 thousand sq. miles). That presents a travel nightmare for U.S. pilots wanting to travel to contests. DS has done some epic road trips to fly in contests, but it isn't reasonable to expect other Juniors to have the means/desire to do the same.

2. Access. The fleet of gliders available for use by the U.S. Junior is shockingly small. DS and JPS both have benefactors who allow travel with race-quality gliders, but how many other Juniors have that kind of access?

Solve both of those problems, then start looking at how Germany/Britain address [all the other problems, many of which are common to both the U.S. and the Europeans].

Allowing free contest entry for Juniors was a good first step. Next steps would be to find a way to fund travel expenses and access to quality gliders.

Cheers,
-Mark Rebuck

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 08:33:02 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:

My gliding club, which I was writing about above, is in New Zealand.

I know your current field - visited in 2003 and met you briefly - but was
in Wgton for about 7 years (VUW then work) back in the 60s & 70s, mostly
flying models on the Trentham rifle range for my aviation fix, so I'm
curious about where the club is likely to move to. Is the plot to stay W
of the ranges and just go a few km north, or would a move to the
Wairarapa make more sense?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

I think that a lot of contributor's here mix up xc and contests. You can love xx, but don't mind contests (as in my case). In our club we train xc, but we don't push people towards contest participation.

Bert
Ventus cM TW

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 2:32:07 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 9:57:15 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:

Sean, look at a map of the US and of England. Take a guess at the density of junior pilots. The reason they can get the numbers (aside from a much more social club environment, I agree) is that they are a lot closer to the racing venue - If every junior pilot in the US could get to a Junior contest with a club or loaned glider within a day's drive, we would see the same or better numbers!

And you are getting a bit tiring, up on your soap box. NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO FLY XC, MUCH LESS RACE! Most of our long time club members, including private owners of some nice glass, have no desire to stress out flying XC. And they are perfectly happy (and pretty good pilots).

Personally, I agree with you that XC and racing is most fun in soaring, along with acro, intro rides for grandmas who have never flown, end of day sled rides with the wife in glassy air as the sun goes down - hmm, I guess it's all good!

Oh, and "low approaches, circling to land..." ;^)

My solution? It's the social aspect, not the flying. THAT'S THE BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EURO AND MOST US CLUBS! We need nice, appealing facilities more than we need nicer gliders; we need clubhouses with bars (or even restaurants), weekend sleeping accommodations, nice areas to park the RVs, things for the spouses and kids to do - When the locals stop by to sit in the shade, sip a cold one, and watch the pretty shiny gliders fly, then you are on the right track!

Kirk
66

Steve Bennis, our mentor at Middletown NY, took me aside one day 30 years ago or so and asked me if I wanted to know the most important thing to keep people coming to our soaring operation.
Not stupid, said tell me the secret.
He did:
Drum roll..................................
Picnics!
The message was that the social environment is very important to capturing and retaining members or customers, in addition to a stimulating flying environment.
UH

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 2:32:07 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
The reason they can get the numbers (aside from a much more social club environment, I agree) is that they are a lot closer to the racing venue.

And winch launching in UK lets large numbers of fledglings test their wings.

We had one 13 year old visiting UK pilot take his first aerotow (ever) while visiting relatives in Vermont. He had 150+ winch launches in his log book @ $5 a pop. 30+ kids in his youth program.

By contrast...We have 5-6 kids working on our line crew where they get one aerotow/lesson/glider_rental for each day that they work as line crew (paid for by a separate non-profit).

The British are holding a Jr winter series! They already have 50 Jr pilots registered for the first event of the series. They are soliciting 2 place gliders from clubs and associated instructors to participate. See attached photo...

Absolutely amazing. The contrast between the UK and US with respect to youth soaring. Talk about getting ones clock cleaned...

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0255Z2WM8lGXY

Common! We have 6x the population of the UK and 10x the wealth! Divide the U.S. into NE, SE, SC, SW, Great Lakes, and Mountian West, etc. 6 regions of our highest population density. Take out the entire center of the U.S.., forget about it. Distance is simply NOT AN EXCUSE for our low or non existent (in the case of Jr soaring) participation. We need to stop making excuses for our complete and utter failure at developing a vibrant and successful youth soaring culture in the USA. We need to accept this failure and change. We need to wake up and fix it. Complacency is not going to help us improve the situation.

Bottom line. Few care!

Cross country soaring and youth participation is the foundation of any healthy soaring community. We simply HAVE NO FOUNDATION anymore! XC is "the" goal to strive towards achieving in soaring. Pattern glider flying is unsustainable and uninspiring. The U.S. has become a country of pattern glider flying.

I wonder what percentage of UK instructors are highly experienced XC pilots vs US instructors. My guess. 85% in the UK vs 15% in the USA. I wonder how many XC hours a UK instructor hour flys per year (on average) vs a U.S. Instructor? Shouldn't a glider instructor have to have a 100km cross country every 2 years at minimum to remain. Urgent as a glider instrucor? Shouldn't a student be encouraged to ask their glider instructor how many XC flights they have competed in the last 1,2,5 years and what their OLC URL is so they can see how experienced they are?

What a shame for potential U.S. Jr pilots.