"Refusing to Handle You"

"Michelle P" wrote in message
link.net...
You would be mistaken. The QC dept. is not floor supervisors. The have to
look at it. I have made several calls to Potomac TRACON QC and I have seen
improvements in their services. I do the same for Leesburg FSS and I have
seen changes there as well. One controller got a few days off for being
rude and just plain wrong.
Michelle



If it makes you feel good, go ahead and call. You are wasting your time. I
assure you that a call to the QA office of a mac-daddy approach control like
Potomac, Southern Cal, Chicago, New York, Atlanta etc, whining about the
facility's refusal to work you en route through busy terminal airspace,
wouldn't make it out of the QA office. They'd pay you lip service, and then
they'd probably laugh about your temerity/stupidity after they hung up the
receiver. Little airplanes IFR en route don't have the magical power to fly
willy nilly through busy Tracons unless the pilot knows the magic word when
he is refused initial clearance. Also, if he uses the magic word, he'd
better be prepared to formally defend its use.

I can imagine that the controllers and flight service specialists in
Maryland and the Old Dominion tremble when they hear your voice on the
radio.

Chip, ZTL

We're back to Monty Python.

No, you're just being Jose.

And you're just being Steven.

How do you know he doesn't want to divert and wait out the weather?

It's not the weather that prompted the exchange, it was Potomac's
refusal to accept the flight. Had it been the weather, the pilot would
likely have requested the diversion first. Granted, maybe the weather
contributes to Potomac's INABILITY to handle the flight, but REFUSAL
does not imply INABILITY (though it does imply inconvenience).

unless things are so balled up...
Now you're catchin' on!

"State intentions": "what are you going to do?" (controller has
hands-off stance)

"State request": "how can I help you?" (controller is offering
coordination assistance - which is the controller's reason for being)

No, it takes me into Potomac approach. I'm no longer a thruflight

Got it. I'd have to know (or suspect) that the reason they are
=refusing= to accept me is that they (as a matter of policy) don't take
thruflights, and not that they are balled up by the weather, or don't
like the position of my wings, or just don't feel like doing whatever it
takes to squeeze me through.

I would never (prior to this exchange) suspected that "they just don't
do thruflights" or "today they aren't doing thruflights".

Ok, in the future I'll try gaming the system. Everyone does that, and
soon Potomac will refuse to accept incoming. Chicago will follow suit.

That is what's happening. The pilots of all those air carrier jets
streaming through the airspace you want to use are getting what they want.
Traffic flows are dictated by air carrier needs because they're the biggest
users.

Some time back, in a different thread (about angelflight) you stated
that angelflight did not get any priority, and continued to say that
aircraft are handled on a first-come first-served basis. Your statement
above seems to contradict that (otherwise I could just be scooted in
front of the next jet that's not there yet).

"Refusing" to accept you is different from "IS UNABLE" to accept you.
Not in this case.

Yes in this case, if they are "unable" to handle me because of all the
jets that haven't gotten there yet. They are unable to handle me =and=
give the jets priority. If what you say is operative, they are
=unwilling= to not give the jets priority in order to let me through.

ARTCC boundaries sometimes change, but they're on the charts.

Maybe that's it, but as I recall it also had to do with altitudes, which
to my knowledge are not charted in that detail.

Then you haven't flown enough.

Right. I could fly twice as much and it wouldn't be enough.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
.. .
"Unable 13,000. Tell you what, can you give me direct Salisbury VOR for
now, and let me go off frequency for a while to talk to Flight Service?"

"Unable Salsbury. I already told you Potomac is refusing to accept you."

(I'm making up the fact that Salsbury is served by Potomac approach - you
as a pilot have no good way to know what is and what isn't. In fact,
Salsbury may only be served by Potomac from 3000 to 7000, but you are at
5000 and the controller is being as helpful and forthcoming now as he was
originally).

Now what?

Jose

How about "Request routing around Potomac approach"?

Chip, ZTL

"Jose" wrote in message
m...

And you're just being Steven.


Thank you.



It's not the weather that prompted the exchange, it was Potomac's refusal
to accept the flight.


Weather was his reason for the route through Potomac approach.

"Jose" wrote in message
...
It's not. But "we've revoked your clearance. Say intentions." is.

"We've revoked your clearance" boils down to a re-route.

No, it boils down to "guess the reroute or go home." It only looks like
an offer to let me decide how I would like to be rerouted - to =actually=
decide I'd have to know what Potomac's airspace looks like. I don't, and
should not be expected to.

It's probably just a misunderstanding based on the controllers not being
pilots, and the pilots not being controllers (and therefore not knowing
what can and cannot be taken for granted), but in this context "say
intentions" sounds like "what are you going to do about it?", which makes
it seem like the controller is going to be non-helpful when the pilot is
depending on the cooperation of the controller.

Jose

I don't read this situation as "guess the reroute or go home." The Center
Controller is going to be issuing Mike ATC instructions to keep him out of
Potomac Approach, because Potomac has unabled an IFR handoff. The Center
guy is helpfully fishing for Mike's input. He may not have used the best
phrasing, but that's what it boils down to. No way in hell the Center
controller is going to let Mike procede on course. He can't. If Mike
doesn't do anything more at all, the Center is going to at least vector him
to stay out of the Tracon.

Chip, ZTL

How about "Request routing around Potomac approach"?

Sure, as long as that doesn't take me on a three hundred mile tour of
the midwest.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
...
How about "Request routing around Potomac approach"?

Sure, as long as that doesn't take me on a three hundred mile tour of the
midwest.

Jose
--

Hey, I thought *I* got to be the pilot here!?! :-)

Chip, ZTL

"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...
In article et,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Howard Nelson" wrote in message
m...

This thread just gets more interesting. I can just imagine a tape
where
the following was said:

"JAL xxx heavy, Bay Approach refusing to accept you. Say intentions"


To what destination would JAL be going that took him through Bay
Approach?

Erm, 1999? :-)

Hamish

Got me. 19xx-1999 Bay Approach, 1999-2003 Nor Cal approach (and maybe a
couple of others), 2004- present Sierra Approach, 2006-? Western Approach,
followed by USA approach to be handled by a synthesized voice sounding like
Steven saying "USA approach refusing to handle you. What are your
intentions?".

Howard

"Howard Nelson" wrote in message
news

"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...
In article et,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Howard Nelson" wrote in message
m...

This thread just gets more interesting. I can just imagine a tape
where
the following was said:

"JAL xxx heavy, Bay Approach refusing to accept you. Say intentions"


To what destination would JAL be going that took him through Bay
Approach?

Erm, 1999? :-)

Hamish

Got me. 19xx-1999 Bay Approach, 1999-2003 Nor Cal approach (and maybe a
couple of others), 2004- present Sierra Approach, 2006-? Western Approach,
followed by USA approach to be handled by a synthesized voice sounding
like
Steven saying "USA approach refusing to handle you. What are your
intentions?".

Howard


My bad

The sequence was Bay to Sierra to NorCal. I can't wait to see what the next
consolidation is. Luckily I haven't said Bay Approach (or TCA) in years
probably because the correct answer is printed on my charts.

Howard

"Jose" wrote in message
...

Sure, as long as that doesn't take me on a three hundred mile tour of the
midwest.


Potomac is in the east.