If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?
I belong to a flying club. Of the many club rules, one is that the
pilot acting as PIC must be a club member. I can certainly see where this is necessary. However, the Chief Pilot for the club claims that the insurance company is requiring that a safety pilot for IFR practice must also be a club member, even when the safety pilot will *not* be acting as PIC. I was told that the reason behind this is that in the event of an accident/incident, the insurance company doesn't want anyone who was acting as a required crew member to be a non club member. Is this normal for an insurance restriction like this? It seems to me that this is just making it harder for the IR pilot to practice. Thanks, |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?
In article ,
Mark Hansen wrote: I belong to a flying club. Of the many club rules, one is that the pilot acting as PIC must be a club member. I can certainly see where this is necessary. However, the Chief Pilot for the club claims that the insurance company is requiring that a safety pilot for IFR practice must also be a club member, even when the safety pilot will *not* be acting as PIC. I was told that the reason behind this is that in the event of an accident/incident, the insurance company doesn't want anyone who was acting as a required crew member to be a non club member. Is this normal for an insurance restriction like this? It seems to me that this is just making it harder for the IR pilot to practice. Thanks, Ask your chief pilot to show you the policy. That's the only way to know for sure. Actually, I'm sure that in the event of accident, the insurance company more certainly DOES want the PIC to be somebody who's not covered by the policy, because then they don't have to pay off. It's the club who doesn't want that to happen. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?
On 02/24/07 13:28, Roy Smith wrote:
In article , Mark Hansen wrote: I belong to a flying club. Of the many club rules, one is that the pilot acting as PIC must be a club member. I can certainly see where this is necessary. However, the Chief Pilot for the club claims that the insurance company is requiring that a safety pilot for IFR practice must also be a club member, even when the safety pilot will *not* be acting as PIC. I was told that the reason behind this is that in the event of an accident/incident, the insurance company doesn't want anyone who was acting as a required crew member to be a non club member. Is this normal for an insurance restriction like this? It seems to me that this is just making it harder for the IR pilot to practice. Thanks, Ask your chief pilot to show you the policy. That's the only way to know for sure. Yes, and I'm sure each policy could be different. I'm really asking what it typical. Actually, I'm sure that in the event of accident, the insurance company more certainly DOES want the PIC to be somebody who's not covered by the policy, because then they don't have to pay off. It's the club who doesn't want that to happen. In this case, the PIC is most definitely a club member. The rub (according to what I'm told) is that a required crew member (safety pilot) is not a club member. The safety pilot would not be acting as PIC. Thanks, |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?
By allowing non-club members to act as safety pilot in club aircraft isn't
that a big loophole to allow pilots of unknown qualification access to club aircraft? I don't propose that their are unscrupulous pilots using the safety pilot "loophole" to gain access to aircraft for nefarious reasons. But I can understand the insurance company dictating minimum qualifications of pilots to fly the club airplanes. If the club or insurance company doesn't limit safety pilots to those accepted as club members the club/insurance company doesn't really have sufficient control over the minimum standard of pilots to access the aircraft. If this is a real insurance or club limitation it seems similar to the "no flight instructing in our aircraft except by approved CFIs" limitation. Without these types of limitations the club member or pilot renting from an FBO can take the airplane and allow non-approved pilots to use the aircraft in a non-approved activity, with flight instructing and IFR work being significant risks. -- Scott |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?
By allowing non-club members to act as safety pilot in club aircraft isn't
that a big loophole to allow pilots of unknown qualification access to club aircraft? Uh... "access to club aircraft"? Like the kind of access my non-club-member passengers have? Or my non-club-member-but-licensed-pilot passengers have? The club member remains PIC and remains resposible for the safety of the flight. What kind of "access" are you talking about? Jose -- Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully understands this holds the world in his hands. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?
On Feb 24, 11:37 am, Mark Hansen wrote:
I belong to a flying club. Of the many club rules, one is that the pilot acting as PIC must be a club member. I can certainly see where this is necessary. However, the Chief Pilot for the club claims that the insurance company is requiring that a safety pilot for IFR practice must also be a club member, even when the safety pilot will *not* be acting as PIC. Insurance companies don't seem to care much about PIC. They determine who is "pilot flying" (term used in most policies) mostly by what seat you are in. However, the Chief Pilot is free to add any rules he wants, he's kinda the boss. You certainly would never want to allow a non-club member on the controls because the insurance co will get you for that if there is an accident, regardless of PIC. -Robert |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?
"Jose" wrote in message
... By allowing non-club members to act as safety pilot in club aircraft isn't that a big loophole to allow pilots of unknown qualification access to club aircraft? Uh... "access to club aircraft"? Like the kind of access my non-club-member passengers have? Or my non-club-member-but-licensed-pilot passengers have? The club member remains PIC and remains resposible for the safety of the flight. What kind of "access" are you talking about? Without the restriction being discussed how does the club/insurance company control which pilots are risking the airplane? If club members are required to use safety pilots that are approved by the club, by virtue of being club members, there is some minimum of safety pilot qualification assured. Without the rule a club member can designate any warm body sitting in the right seat as safety pilot. The rule may not prevent unauthorized use any more than a "no flight instructing in aircraft rented by ABC Aviation without prior approval" but the rule seems just as reasonable. The rule is a bright line which informs club members specifically about an acitivity of increased risk. While pilots and insurance companies have been arguing for years about "who's in control" and PIC, etc. The rule seems to head off the ambiguity by requiring both pilots to be approved by virtue of membership. -- Scott |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?
On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:13:09 -0600, "tscottme"
wrote: By allowing non-club members to act as safety pilot in club aircraft isn't that a big loophole to allow pilots of unknown qualification access to club aircraft? I don't propose that their are unscrupulous pilots using the safety pilot "loophole" to gain access to aircraft for nefarious reasons. The safety pilot is chosen by the PIC, no? As I've safetied for my friends, I've NEVER actually flown the plane. G My job is simply to look for other VFR traffic, and ensure we stay separated from traffic called out to us by ATC, while the other pilot was under the hood and flying the instruments. What "nefarious reasons" could a safety pilot have who's been chosen by the PIC? Many of our local safety pilots are FBO line people working up advanced ratings and looking to log free time. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?
Without the restriction being discussed how does the club/insurance company
control which pilots are risking the airplane? "Risking" the airplane? What are you talking about? The PIC "risks" the airplane every time he flies it. He "risks" the airplane even more if he takes a passenger. Perhaps passengers should be required to be club members. Without the rule a club member can designate any warm body sitting in the right seat as safety pilot. No, the safety pilot has to meet certain FAA standards. The PIC "risks" the airplane every time he puts on a hood. But it is the PIC that is risking the airplane. The rule seems to head off the ambiguity by requiring both pilots to be approved by virtue of membership. Ambiguity can also be headed off by requiring all occupants to be club members. Jose -- Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully understands this holds the world in his hands. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?
On 02/24/07 18:13, tscottme wrote:
By allowing non-club members to act as safety pilot in club aircraft isn't that a big loophole to allow pilots of unknown qualification access to club aircraft? I don't propose that their are unscrupulous pilots using the safety pilot "loophole" to gain access to aircraft for nefarious reasons. But I can understand the insurance company dictating minimum qualifications of pilots to fly the club airplanes. If the club or insurance company doesn't limit safety pilots to those accepted as club members the club/insurance company doesn't really have sufficient control over the minimum standard of pilots to access the aircraft. If this is a real insurance or club limitation it seems similar to the "no flight instructing in our aircraft except by approved CFIs" limitation. Without these types of limitations the club member or pilot renting from an FBO can take the airplane and allow non-approved pilots to use the aircraft in a non-approved activity, with flight instructing and IFR work being significant risks. Again ... the safety pilot is not acting as pilot in command. He is acting as safety pilot only. He is little more than a passenger. Incidentally, the club requires that the pilot acting as PIC be a club member, so that rules out the ability for the safety pilot to act as PIC (even if they allowed non-club members to be safety pilot). |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Find a Safety Pilot in your area with Safety Pilot Club | Safety Pilot Club | Instrument Flight Rules | 0 | December 29th 06 03:51 AM |
Insurance company recommendation? | John Doe | Owning | 7 | October 27th 05 08:07 PM |
Safety pilot in and out of IMC | Paul Tomblin | Instrument Flight Rules | 43 | December 21st 04 07:58 PM |
Safety Pilot | Matt Young | Instrument Flight Rules | 5 | July 8th 04 12:16 PM |
Getting around company insurance policy | Iain Wilson | Piloting | 19 | May 22nd 04 05:43 PM |