German historian provokes row over war photos

(Autocollimator) wrote in message ...
Subject: German historian provokes row over war photos
From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
Date: 10/22/03 2:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: et


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

If there was no Hitler there would hve been no WW II and the 55 million
who
died would all have lived.


That can't be known. Even if Corporal Hitler had been killed in the Great
War events could still have transpired leading to another war and the need
for Roman numerals to differentiate them.


We don't know what might have happened. We only know what did happen to the
everlasting shame of the German people.

"Eternal Shame". Yes of couse guilt is heriditary especialy so when
it comes to Germans or White people in America and Europe. A usefull
concept if you want to destry a culture and the race that this culture
nurtures and sustains. Genocide and Ethnocide by stealth.

It's also a racist concept. (Noting wrong with that except it's a
double standard)

Tell me what are your racial and antecedents? Can you be shamed
eternaly commiting genocide upon the Caananites, or were your
ancestors from the SE of Eruope one of those turks or mongols that
ranged as far north as Moscow, Vienna and Warsaw in the 8th-14th
century taking slaves and killing their parents?

Perhaps you were one of the English that murdered Celtic Scotts at
Culloden? or a French Catholic who expelled the Huegenots? I'm sure
we can pin something on you in recent History. As an american I hope
you get to enjoy paying for affirmitve action, racial set asides and
soon "reperations". For ever.

The Germans and the Nazis had no truck with the English, French or
anyone else in Western Europe. They were concerend with the 3.5
million German speaking Austrians on their border (previously Bavarian
but ended up as Austo-Hungarian by marriage in 1500) than ended up in
the Sudentenland as part of Czechoslovakia. (Against the Armistice).
There if you care to check the League of nations to find thousands of
records of depracations and crimes against German ethnics. This was
not a Nazi fabrication. They were supposed to be offered a swiss style
confederation but it was clear that the Polish and Czech Nationalists
were not about to be generous and had no such intention. (The issue
of Polish East Prussia is more complcated as it appears to have been
contested for 2000 years. Roman Historian Tacitus does mention a
Germanic tribe the "Preusi" living on the Vistuala in Present Poland
then Prussia)

Notably Tyrolean Austrians forced into Italy but treated decently
experience no such depracations.

They, the Nazis and Germans, were concerned similarly with the more
potent threat of Stalin where even before his ascention in 1932 had
seen a Bolschevic butcher and expullsion of millions of people on the
basis of ethnicticiy.

At the end of the war for a momment Churchill recognised the folly at
one level when he said re hitler vs Stalin "Looks like we Butchered
the Wrong *******" and Patton, by then Governor of Bavaria expressed
similar sentiments.

As far as jews go, yes that was a crime. The Germans resented their
power. They made up more than 50% to 75% the doctors and lawyers in
Berlin and Vienna. They owned ALL of the department stores. They
dominated the media like they do in the USA today. Their oh so fine
marxist intellectuals mocked German attempts at cohesion in a
competitive world in which they were under attack and promoted class
warfare. Records show that soviet Secret Police the NKVD that murdered
4.5 million Ukranians were 10.8% Jewish. (Ukrain was 0.6% Jewish and
the Soviet Union 4%) No wonder so many Ukranians helped the Nazis.

They sowed the wind and they reaped the whirlwind. To bad about the
ordinary Jews right? but according to you that doesn't matter. It is
to their "eternal shame" perhaps for Jews as for Germans. You can't
have one without promoting the other.

If there was no Hitler there would hve been no WW II and the 55 million
who
died would all have lived.


That can't be known. Even if Corporal Hitler had been killed in the Great
War events could still have transpired leading to another war and the need
for Roman numerals to differentiate them.


We don't know what might have happened. We only know what did happen to the
everlasting shame of the German people.

Well atleast the Germans/Japs today have the decency to be ashamed of
the misdeeds of their forefathers.

All I know is if the Germans had won the war (by some miraculous turn
of fortunes in 1945) today the Brits would have been hanging their
heads in their 'everlasting shame' when talk turned to Bomber Harris
et al while the Germans would have been defending Herr Eichman for his
'necessary if unpleasant' duties for the state.

In article ,
Autocollimator writes
Subject: German historian provokes row over war photos
From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
Date: 10/22/03 2:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: et


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

If there was no Hitler there would hve been no WW II and the 55 million
who
died would all have lived.


That can't be known. Even if Corporal Hitler had been killed in the Great
War events could still have transpired leading to another war and the need
for Roman numerals to differentiate them.


We don't know what might have happened. We only know what did happen to the
everlasting shame of the German people.


Only to the shame of the generation who were fooled into voting the
NSDAP into power. You can hardly blame their descendants, although there
are always some idiots who do. The sins of the fathers, and all that.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

Peter Twydell wrote:

Only to the shame of the generation who were fooled into voting the
NSDAP into power. You can hardly blame their descendants, although there
are always some idiots who do. The sins of the fathers, and all that.

No, you can't blame generations after the events, but those generations
will still be saddled with the shame (if the government/people have any
sense of decency) of those events.

Americans have pre-20th century Indian policies and slavery to live down.
You Brits perhaps actions in Ireland or China or India.

No matter how many generations proceed beyond WWII, Germans will have
Hitler.


SMH

Subject: German historian provokes row over war photos
From: Peter Twydell
Date: 10/23/03 12:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time

Only to the shame of the generation who were fooled into voting the
NSDAP into power. You can hardly blame their descendants, although there
are always some idiots who do

Then there are those idiots who don't know that to this day there are many
Germans who believe in Hitler and the Nazi cause and want to bring it all back
These are the worst idiots of all..

Subject: German historian provokes row over war photos
From: Stephen Harding
Date: 10/23/03 1:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Peter Twydell wrote:

Only to the shame of the generation who were fooled into voting the
NSDAP into power. You can hardly blame their descendants, although there
are always some idiots who do. The sins of the fathers, and all that.

No, you can't blame generations after the events, but those generations
will still be saddled with the shame (if the government/people have any
sense of decency) of those events.

Americans have pre-20th century Indian policies and slavery to live down.
You Brits perhaps actions in Ireland or China or India.

No matter how many generations proceed beyond WWII, Germans will have
Hitler.


SMH


Sadly true.

"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
om...
(Autocollimator) wrote in message
...
Subject: German historian provokes row over war photos
From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
Date: 10/22/03 2:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: et


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

If there was no Hitler there would hve been no WW II and the 55
million
who
died would all have lived.


That can't be known. Even if Corporal Hitler had been killed in the
Great
War events could still have transpired leading to another war and the
need
for Roman numerals to differentiate them.


We don't know what might have happened. We only know what did happen to
the
everlasting shame of the German people.

"Eternal Shame". Yes of couse guilt is heriditary especialy so when
it comes to Germans or White people in America and Europe. A usefull
concept if you want to destry a culture and the race that this culture
nurtures and sustains. Genocide and Ethnocide by stealth.

It's also a racist concept. (Noting wrong with that except it's a
double standard)

Eugenics is science, but I can see how a Government might be racist. The
same convergence of science, religion and racism was quite popular in the US
as well in the 1920s. An identical set of ideas ruled the southern US, sans
eugenics.

"The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" wrote in
message ...
On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:20:33 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

If there was no Hitler there would hve been no WW II and the 55 million
who
died would all have lived.


That can't be known. Even if Corporal Hitler had been killed in the
Great
War events could still have transpired leading to another war and the
need
for Roman numerals to differentiate them.

There was no other party in the Weimar Republic, even the Communists,
who were as openly and avoidly dedicated to Hitlerian principles of
racial supremacy, internal repression and external aggression. The
Nazi party existed only as a vehicle for Hitler to achieve and
maintain power. It was totally and completely subordinated to the
whim of the leader. No other right-wing nationalist party had
anything like the adherence to outright dictatorship with irrational,
visionary goals.

Tweeks of old are much like tweeks of today.

Take a look at the competitors: von Papen and Schleisser? Both of
them were unpleasantly reactionary right-wingers, but even the latter,
basically a junta general, did not have the ambitions Hitler had. I
think it's quite tenable to assume that Weimar democracy might not
have survived the depression, but the personal influence of Hitler on
the road to war and the decision to wage war was absolutely critical.

Adolph brought neo-Darwinism to its peak.

(The Revolution Will Not Be Televised) wrote:

There was no other party in the Weimar Republic, even the Communists,
who were as openly and avoidly dedicated to Hitlerian principles of
racial supremacy, internal repression and external aggression. The
Nazi party existed only as a vehicle for Hitler to achieve and
maintain power. It was totally and completely subordinated to the
whim of the leader. No other right-wing nationalist party had
anything like the adherence to outright dictatorship with irrational,
visionary goals.

Take a look at the competitors: von Papen and Schleisser? Both of
them were unpleasantly reactionary right-wingers, but even the latter,
basically a junta general, did not have the ambitions Hitler had. I
think it's quite tenable to assume that Weimar democracy might not
have survived the depression, but the personal influence of Hitler on
the road to war and the decision to wage war was absolutely critical.

I think a god argument can be made that the philosophy behind the neo-pagan
revivial that began in the 1890's would have lead inevitably to more war.
Already in WWI (The Great War for Civilization) the swastica was the most
common good luck tallisman among German troops. The pieces were all falling
into place. If not Hittler, then another. If it had come a few years later,
with the pace of German science, the results could have been somewhat
different.

-- Charlie Springer

On 24 Oct 2003 04:09:42 GMT, (Regnirps) wrote:

Take a look at the competitors: von Papen and Schleisser? Both of
them were unpleasantly reactionary right-wingers, but even the latter,
basically a junta general, did not have the ambitions Hitler had. I
think it's quite tenable to assume that Weimar democracy might not
have survived the depression, but the personal influence of Hitler on
the road to war and the decision to wage war was absolutely critical.

I think a god argument can be made that the philosophy behind the neo-pagan
revivial that began in the 1890's would have lead inevitably to more war.
Already in WWI (The Great War for Civilization) the swastica was the most
common good luck tallisman among German troops. The pieces were all falling
into place. If not Hittler, then another. If it had come a few years later,
with the pace of German science, the results could have been somewhat
different.

Nonetheless, the strongest centre party was catholic and produced
chancellors like Brunning and the SPD remained the largest single
party for years. Hitler was able to exploit deep-seated, even
atavistic German prejudices, but his ultimate success required brutal
repression and connivance with more traditional reactionary powers who
realised their mistake too late. Look at what happened to von Papen
when he challenged the Nazi policy of repression when it moved beyond
godless communists, and how Ludendorf, who should have been an obvious
figurehead for right-wing fanatics, had come realise the true dangers
involved with Hitler by the time he became chancellor.

There might possibly have been a war, but it came much sooner and on a
much wider scale than I can possibly believe the traditional
reactionaries wanted. That came down to Hitler's personal influence.

Art Kramer is dead right about the main responsibility for this one.
We know that with Hitler at the helm, war and genocide were
inevitable. Whatever fantasies the right had about regaining national
honour, revening Versailles, expanding back into lost territories in
the East, their main motivation for aligning with Hitler was to find
the mass support they lacked to crush domestic enemies : the
socialists and social democrats and the democratic institutions that
allowed their mass support to obstruct reactionary hopes. If Weimar
had survived, there probably would not have been a war.

Gavin Bailey

--

"Will Boogie Down For Food".- Sign held by Disco Stu outside the unemployment office.