It was 62 years ago today...

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:20:39 +0100, Martin Hotze
wrote:

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

Had the U.S. not been attacked by Japan, it's unlikely that we would have
declared war on Germany alone.

I don't have the details handy, but AFAIR: USA declared war on Japan and as
Japan and Germany where allies, Germany then declared war on the USA.

Am I wrong?

Actually this isn't exactly correct. While it's true that Hitler
declared war on America after the attack on Pearl Harbor, he was not
obigated by treaty to do so.

The specifics of the treaty required him to declare war on America IF
America attacked Japan, not the other way around.

It isn't clear why Hitler decided to declare war on the U.S. It is
possible he, like Japan, underestimated the ability of America to
effectively wage war.

Corky Scott

I'll chime in here and ask my fellow American countrymen what year the Nazi
party rose to power. The event of Pearl Harbor was important, but the date
probably wouldn't be remembered by any that weren't alive at the time here
in the UK. It's not a seminal date in their history, any more than the date
Germany invaded Poland is important in the US. Likewise, most Americans
don't know when Paris was liberated, but I'll bet most French people have
some idea.

Shawn
"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:aX5Bb.473209$Fm2.460844@attbi_s04...

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:34:55 GMT, Geoffrey Barnes wrote:


*hmmm* still no clue ... well, *googling* ... oh. Pearl Harbor.
Hm, not that important of a date here in Europe and/but well known in
the
US, I assume.

Come on Martin - I agree with a lot of your posts that accuse the US of a
provinicial world-view, but to say Pearl Harbor was not a date important
in
world history is ludicrous. It was the precipitating event that drew the
US
into WWII, which, as I remember, had a pretty large effect on Europe.
Saying
Pearl Harbor is an unimportant date in European history is like saying the
rise of Nazism was unimportant in US history.

Bob, Shawn,

Read the thread. The confusion about date versus event was cleared up
yesterday.

Michael

"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
...
I'll chime in here and ask my fellow American countrymen what year the
Nazi
party rose to power. The event of Pearl Harbor was important, but the
date
probably wouldn't be remembered by any that weren't alive at the time here
in the UK. It's not a seminal date in their history, any more than the
date
Germany invaded Poland is important in the US. Likewise, most Americans
don't know when Paris was liberated, but I'll bet most French people have
some idea.

Shawn
"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:aX5Bb.473209$Fm2.460844@attbi_s04...

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:34:55 GMT, Geoffrey Barnes wrote:


*hmmm* still no clue ... well, *googling* ... oh. Pearl Harbor.
Hm, not that important of a date here in Europe and/but well known in
the
US, I assume.

Come on Martin - I agree with a lot of your posts that accuse the US of
a
provinicial world-view, but to say Pearl Harbor was not a date important
in
world history is ludicrous. It was the precipitating event that drew the
US
into WWII, which, as I remember, had a pretty large effect on Europe.
Saying
Pearl Harbor is an unimportant date in European history is like saying
the
rise of Nazism was unimportant in US history.

"Michael Nouak" wrote in message
...
France is considered a victor nation along with England, Russia and the
United States. Among the four of them they got to carve up Germany and
Austria.

Not that there's anything wrong with the winners getting their piece of
the
pie. But why France? And if it was done to placate CDG - who the hell was
he
to demand being considered a victor?

I just never understood that.


The big worry after the end of the war was that France would
go communist. Restoration of their national pride was key to
enhancing the prestige of non-communists. This was also logic
behind restoring Vietnam to France (although the latter was
more a UK thing than a US one, strangely enough considering
what happened later).

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Michael Nouak wrote:


"Geoffrey Barnes" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
ink.net...
"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
whenever I see the space shuttle - that
the heat shield ceramic plates on the
space shuttle are made in Austria

And if you ever watched Candian TV, you would think that the full name of
the Space Shuttle is really, "The American Space Shuttle with it's
Candian-Built Robot Arm"!

Ha! Just when I thought it was the "Candian-Built Robot Arm with its
American Space Shuttle"...

I think you both mean "Canadian" - note the extra A! (eh?)

I've also noticed the Canadarm-Shuttle thing - most of the Shuttle footage
Canadian TV shows have the Maple-Leaf-decaled Arm right at screen centre,
too.

Brian.

"Big John" wrote in message Martin

Would have thought those in Europe would remember as it lead to the US
getting involved in the European conflict and helping to defeat
Germany, Italy, etc.

Big John

How short the memory. You probably would have been speaking German.

Big John your are a grade 1Asshole - Martin already speaks German, he is
Austrian.

The date of the attack on Pearl Harbour is not in grained on the minds of
Europeans. Lets face it we do not commemorate when the war started
(depending on which country you are from it started on different dates
anyway). The second world war did not start on 7 th December 1941. That was
only the date the Japanese gave the US an invitation to join the war they
could not refuse.

Roger that. Noticed after I transmitted. Still, it was a fun debate to
follow...
"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:8RnBb.4989$8y1.25566@attbi_s52...
Bob, Shawn,

Read the thread. The confusion about date versus event was cleared up
yesterday.

Michael

"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
...
I'll chime in here and ask my fellow American countrymen what year the
Nazi
party rose to power. The event of Pearl Harbor was important, but the
date
probably wouldn't be remembered by any that weren't alive at the time
here
in the UK. It's not a seminal date in their history, any more than the
date
Germany invaded Poland is important in the US. Likewise, most Americans
don't know when Paris was liberated, but I'll bet most French people
have
some idea.

Shawn
"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:aX5Bb.473209$Fm2.460844@attbi_s04...

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:34:55 GMT, Geoffrey Barnes wrote:


*hmmm* still no clue ... well, *googling* ... oh. Pearl Harbor.
Hm, not that important of a date here in Europe and/but well known
in
the
US, I assume.

Come on Martin - I agree with a lot of your posts that accuse the US
of
a
provinicial world-view, but to say Pearl Harbor was not a date
important
in
world history is ludicrous. It was the precipitating event that drew
the
US
into WWII, which, as I remember, had a pretty large effect on Europe.
Saying
Pearl Harbor is an unimportant date in European history is like saying
the
rise of Nazism was unimportant in US history.

"Michael Nouak" wrote in message
...

"Jay Honeck" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:FB7Bb.469677$Tr4.1294247@attbi_s03...
You mean: USA wouldn't have joined into the war without the Japanese
agression? I doubt that the USA would have remained neutral as there
have
been some
attackes by german submarines in US ports and en-route on the Atlantic
and
the US more and more supporting England.

Well, in many ways Hitler was a fool (attacking the U.S.S.R before
finishing
off Great Britain, for example, was just plain stupid), but I don't
think
he
would have drawn the U.S. into the war by choice.

German and American naval forces were duking it out in the North Atlantic
before 7 Dec 41, which IMO would have led to the US eventually entering
the
war at some point. The USS Greer attacked, and was then counter-attacked
by,
a U-Boat in September (I think), and the USS Reuben James was sunk late
October. The question is, would the US have entered the war soon enough to
make a difference without the Japanese attack?

IMO, most of the credit for winning the war in Europe should go to the
Brits, for having the stamina to hold out for as long as they did. If they
had lost it in '40 or early '41, the world would definitely be a different
place today. As it was, they held out long enough for a) Hitler to invade
Russia ("How to Throw Away Your Resources 101"), and for b) the US to
throw
its industrial might into the fight. The combined Russian and American war
efforts then eventually turned the tide against Germany, leading to a
sound
defeat. There's no telling what would have happened if it had been just
England and Russia, or England and America. Why France is considered a
"victor" nation, I don't know.

Mike

Politics - the French were and always have been a total waste of space and
were mightily ****ed off went he British sunk their navy after they
surrendered.

The French have always resented the English speakers for liberating France
and standing up to the Germans.

Even today with the European Union. the French are the poodles of the
Germans.

Dave

"Dave" wrote in message
...

"Big John" wrote in message Martin

How short the memory. You probably would have been speaking German.

Big John your are a grade 1Asshole - Martin already speaks German, he is
Austrian.

Surely he should be speaking Australian?


The date of the attack on Pearl Harbour is not in grained on the minds of
Europeans. Lets face it we do not commemorate when the war started
(depending on which country you are from it started on different dates
anyway). The second world war did not start on 7 th December 1941. That
was
only the date the Japanese gave the US an invitation to join the war they
could not refuse.


I suppose that date is as good as any -- after all, that's the
date that there were the maximum number of participants -- and
it never technically was a 'world war', since not everyone took
part.

It is an important date from the British perspective. When
Churchill heard the news he is reported to have said that "Today
we have won the war".

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

"Michael Nouak" wrote in message
...

IMO, most of the credit for winning the war in Europe should go to the
Brits, for having the stamina to hold out for as long as they did.

And particularly (bringing this thread OT) to the lads in the RAF,
and the designers and builders of the Spitfire and Hurricane.

.................................................. .......................
If they
had lost it in '40 or early '41, the world would definitely be a different
place today. As it was, they held out long enough for a) Hitler to invade
Russia ("How to Throw Away Your Resources 101"), and for b) the US to
throw
its industrial might into the fight.


It was a close thing, not helped of course by JFK's
ambassador father & his continual reports of Britain's
imminent collapse.

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/