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Objective Engine Discussion



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 3rd 03, 06:53 PM
Rick Maddy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Objective Engine Discussion

I wish to begin gathering UNEMOTIONAL, tangible pros and cons on
engine choices for my Cozy Mk IV. I won't be ready to begin working on
my firewall for about 12 more months.

As I see it today I have the following engine choices:

Lycoming 360 or XP-360
Mazda 13B or Renesis
Jabiru 5100
Subaru ???

My background:

- I don't know squat about engines - all I know is that they are big,
heavy, expensive, you add gas and oil, and it makes the big fan go

Issues I DO NOT want to discuss at this time:

- Resale value
- Religious discussions of using "standard" aircraft engine vs. auto
conversion.

Here are some questions I have at this time:

1) Fuel - Can the XP-360 use autogas? Can the listed auto engines use
100LL? For those of you using an auto engine - how do you get autogas
to your plane?

2) While I hope to learn a lot more about my engine, whichever I
choose, I don't expect to learn enough to do all work myself when it
comes to maintenance. Obviously, the XP-360 can be repaired at most
airports. For those with auto engines, what options do you have for
repair?

3) Living in Denver, I expect to fly above 10,000' quite a bit. Am I
going to want a turbo auto engine? What is equivilent for the XP-360?

Here is my current list of Pros/Cons for XP-360 vs. auto engine:

XP-360

Pros: Fairly standard, mostly plans install. Improvement over true
Lycoming. Get repairs at most airports. Get 100LL any airport.
Cons: Expensive repairs.

Auto Engine

Pros: Newer technology. Much cheaper repair. Cheaper parts at local
auto parts store.
Cons: Smaller knowledge base. Huge deviation from plans install. Might
need custom cowling. Where to get repairs? Where to get gas?

Comparisons that I see as a wash:

- Initial installation costs will end up being about the same.
- Installed weight/CG will be about the same.
- I know nothing about either so I have the same amount to learn.

I'm sure I'm missing some things here (and that is why I'm asking for
help).

Again, please keep answers and suggestions as objective as possible. I
don't want to start religious battles with this thread.

Thank you all for the help.

__________________
Rick Maddy
Denver, CO
Cozy Mk IV #824 - Chapter 19
http://www.maddyhome.com/cozy
Ads
  #2  
Old October 3rd 03, 10:47 PM
Rick Maddy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

And what about a diesel?
Especially as you are at some altitude?
Initial cost is higher but running cost is lower.
Any idea how many hours per year you'll fly?


Since posting my original message I've received comments about some
new Honda/Continental engine and references to the DeltaHawk Diesel.

I know nothing about either but I'm open to hearing about them.

Inform me

Rick
  #3  
Old October 3rd 03, 10:56 PM
Russell Kent
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Default

Rick Maddy wrote:

1) Fuel - Can the XP-360 use autogas? Can the listed auto engines use
100LL? For those of you using an auto engine - how do you get autogas
to your plane?


Since the engine is going into an experimental, you have the option of
de-certifying what would otherwise be considered a "certified" engine.
Many of the certified engines can be run on autogas, even when the
certified engine in a certified airframe cannot. Running on autogas can
significantly impact your hourly run rate, so this is an important thing
to get nailed down if you want to go with a Lycoming or Continental.

Auto engines can burn 100LL. The issue is (primarily) the posioning of
the oxygen sensor (O2 sensor). Some auto conversions retain the O2 sensor
while others do not. Since you said you don't know squat about engines,
I'll assume you're going to try to get a firewall forward package. Ask
the packager if 100LL is an issue.

As for getting autogas to the plane: some airports have autogas (check
your A/FD). Some people transport fuel to the plane in gas cans, and a
few hardy souls have crafted tankers to cart fuel to the plane. See Jay
Honeck's "Mighty Grape" in this forum (search Google Newsgroups) or Jim
Weir's fine 54 gallon fuel trailer plans in Kitplanes magazine (IIRC).


XP-360

Pros: Fairly standard, mostly plans install. Improvement over true
Lycoming. Get repairs at most airports. Get 100LL any airport.
Cons: Expensive repairs.

Auto Engine

Pros: Newer technology. Much cheaper repair. Cheaper parts at local
auto parts store.
Cons: Smaller knowledge base. Huge deviation from plans install. Might
need custom cowling. Where to get repairs? Where to get gas?


If you go the auto conversion route, you are almost 100% certain to use a
water-cooled engine. This is always problematic since the airframe
designer almost never plans for radiators. And cooling on canards (like
the Cozy you're building) is a dicey proposition. You're opening a big
can of worms. Think long and hard about copying some other Cozy builder's
*successful* auto conversion.

Comparisons that I see as a wash:

- Initial installation costs will end up being about the same.


Not really. Out-of-pocket expense for a new turnkey certified engine will
be somewhat higher than those for a turnkey auto conversion, but the cost
in time spent re-engineering things to fit your airframe will be much
higher for the auto conversion. And the certified engine installation
will be alot more deterministic (less guessing and experimenting). What's
your time worth?

- Installed weight/CG will be about the same.


If you're lucky/careful. If you're sloppy, the auto conversion will weigh
a ton. Beware.

- I know nothing about either so I have the same amount to learn.


There's not much to learn (societally, not individually) about putting a
Lycoming or Continental in a Cozy: scores of builders have done it before
and the trail is well marked. Choose a Jaibiru, 13B, Chevy, Ford, or
Subaru and suddenly you're one of maybe a dozen (or less). Choose a
Renesis and you'll be the trailblazer (although you could probably copy
alot from a 13B).

Russell Kent



  #4  
Old October 3rd 03, 11:15 PM
Ernest Christley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Rick Maddy wrote:

1) Fuel - Can the XP-360 use autogas? Can the listed auto engines use
100LL? For those of you using an auto engine - how do you get autogas
to your plane?


100LL will kill the spark plugs in a 13B. The lead contaminates the
ceramic, limiting plug life to around 25hrs.

You're initial install for the 13B will be MUCH less expensive than a
XP-360.

You're initial learning curve and work load will be MUCH greater for a
13B than a XP-360. (Just about any plans you can buy will show a motor
mount and plumbing for the 360. You're on your own with the 13B, unless
you're building an RV.)

Read the 'fly rotary' mailing list archives to learn more than you'd
ever like about installing the 13B.

--
http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org/
"Ignorance is mankinds normal state,
alleviated by information and experience."
Veeduber

  #5  
Old October 3rd 03, 11:24 PM
Paul Lee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I am just finishing up a SQ2000 canard - similar to a Mk IV -
and chose a 6 cyl Franklin 6A-350. It is comparable in weight and power
to a Lycoming XP-360 but considerably cheaper. Brand new certified
ones go for about $17K - plus accessories. I completely rebuilt mine
from a core for under $10K. The 6A-350 10.5/1 high compression makes
it good at higher altitudes. The US Franklin engine Co. was taken over
by a Polish company who build it there under US certification but
recently has been purchased by United Technologies (a US company).
More info at http://home.adelphia.net/~aeroengine/Franklin.html

One of the gripes I have with the Lycoming 360 4 cyl is that it is
a rough engine compared to any 6 cyl. The extra vibrations contribute
to engine mount and other parts failures. The big 6 cyl Lyc 540 is just
out of the league. The Continental IO-360 is also a 6 but somewhat
heavier than the Frankl 6A-350.

----------------------------------------------------
Paul Lee, SQ2000 canard project: www.abri.com/sq2000

(Rick Maddy) wrote in message . com...
I wish to begin gathering UNEMOTIONAL, tangible pros and cons on
engine choices for my Cozy Mk IV. I won't be ready to begin working on
my firewall for about 12 more months.

As I see it today I have the following engine choices:

Lycoming 360 or XP-360
Mazda 13B or Renesis
Jabiru 5100
Subaru ???

My background:

- I don't know squat about engines - all I know is that they are big,
heavy, expensive, you add gas and oil, and it makes the big fan go

Issues I DO NOT want to discuss at this time:

- Resale value
- Religious discussions of using "standard" aircraft engine vs. auto
conversion.

Here are some questions I have at this time:

1) Fuel - Can the XP-360 use autogas? Can the listed auto engines use
100LL? For those of you using an auto engine - how do you get autogas
to your plane?

2) While I hope to learn a lot more about my engine, whichever I
choose, I don't expect to learn enough to do all work myself when it
comes to maintenance. Obviously, the XP-360 can be repaired at most
airports. For those with auto engines, what options do you have for
repair?

3) Living in Denver, I expect to fly above 10,000' quite a bit. Am I
going to want a turbo auto engine? What is equivilent for the XP-360?

Here is my current list of Pros/Cons for XP-360 vs. auto engine:

XP-360

Pros: Fairly standard, mostly plans install. Improvement over true
Lycoming. Get repairs at most airports. Get 100LL any airport.
Cons: Expensive repairs.

Auto Engine

Pros: Newer technology. Much cheaper repair. Cheaper parts at local
auto parts store.
Cons: Smaller knowledge base. Huge deviation from plans install. Might
need custom cowling. Where to get repairs? Where to get gas?

Comparisons that I see as a wash:

- Initial installation costs will end up being about the same.
- Installed weight/CG will be about the same.
- I know nothing about either so I have the same amount to learn.

I'm sure I'm missing some things here (and that is why I'm asking for
help).

Again, please keep answers and suggestions as objective as possible. I
don't want to start religious battles with this thread.

Thank you all for the help.

__________________
Rick Maddy
Denver, CO
Cozy Mk IV #824 - Chapter 19
http://www.maddyhome.com/cozy
  #6  
Old October 5th 03, 06:26 PM
Kyle Boatright
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Rick Maddy" wrote in message
om...
I wish to begin gathering UNEMOTIONAL, tangible pros and cons on
engine choices for my Cozy Mk IV. I won't be ready to begin working on
my firewall for about 12 more months.

As I see it today I have the following engine choices:

Lycoming 360 or XP-360
Mazda 13B or Renesis
Jabiru 5100
Subaru ???

My background:

- I don't know squat about engines - all I know is that they are big,
heavy, expensive, you add gas and oil, and it makes the big fan go

Issues I DO NOT want to discuss at this time:

- Resale value
- Religious discussions of using "standard" aircraft engine vs. auto
conversion.

Here are some questions I have at this time:

1) Fuel - Can the XP-360 use autogas? Can the listed auto engines use
100LL? For those of you using an auto engine - how do you get autogas
to your plane?

2) While I hope to learn a lot more about my engine, whichever I
choose, I don't expect to learn enough to do all work myself when it
comes to maintenance. Obviously, the XP-360 can be repaired at most
airports. For those with auto engines, what options do you have for
repair?

3) Living in Denver, I expect to fly above 10,000' quite a bit. Am I
going to want a turbo auto engine? What is equivilent for the XP-360?

Here is my current list of Pros/Cons for XP-360 vs. auto engine:

XP-360

Pros: Fairly standard, mostly plans install. Improvement over true
Lycoming. Get repairs at most airports. Get 100LL any airport.
Cons: Expensive repairs.

Auto Engine

Pros: Newer technology. Much cheaper repair. Cheaper parts at local
auto parts store.
Cons: Smaller knowledge base. Huge deviation from plans install. Might
need custom cowling. Where to get repairs? Where to get gas?

Comparisons that I see as a wash:

- Initial installation costs will end up being about the same.
- Installed weight/CG will be about the same.
- I know nothing about either so I have the same amount to learn.

I'm sure I'm missing some things here (and that is why I'm asking for
help).

Again, please keep answers and suggestions as objective as possible. I
don't want to start religious battles with this thread.

Thank you all for the help.

__________________
Rick Maddy
Denver, CO
Cozy Mk IV #824 - Chapter 19
http://www.maddyhome.com/cozy



IF, as you say, you don't know "squat" about engines, you'll have a bad time
trying to engineer a custom engine installation. I know it is attractive to
think you can save money on the initial engine cost (or subsequent fuel
cost) by using an alternate engine instead of a lycoming 0-320 or 0-360.
However, if your goal is to build a flying, traveling, airplane, you'll be
happier with the lycoming. You won't have to engineer a custom engine
mount, custom cooling and fuel systems, custom cable routings, custom
electrical system, etc. You won't have to do the follow-on development work
when/if your engineering wasn't quite good enough and the engine didn't run
right on your first test flight. Also, with a lycoming, when it breaks (all
engines and/or systems do - usually in somewhere the other side of
Timbuktu), you will be able to call a dozen different vendors and get THE
part you need Fed-Ex'ed to you the next day.

I have an 0-320 in my RV-6, and missed SnF a couple of years ago because my
neato electronic ignition died the day before the show, and the only guy in
the world with replacement parts was already at the show. I couldn't get in
touch with him to diagnose the problem or have parts shipped. That's the
kind of thing you run into with oddball *critical* equipment on your
airplane...

A fellow EAA'er just spend a YEAR post first flight working out development
issues with his auto conversion. He had the engine and other systems
running on a bench several years before he went flying, and still had plenty
of difficulties. Unless you're a tinkerer, not a flyer, go with a fully
developed engine installation.

KB




  #7  
Old October 5th 03, 07:48 PM
Barnyard BOb --
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Again, please keep answers and suggestions as objective as possible. I
don't want to start religious battles with this thread.

Thank you all for the help.

Rick Maddy



IF, as you say, you don't know "squat" about engines, you'll have a bad time
trying to engineer a custom engine installation. I know it is attractive to
think you can save money on the initial engine cost (or subsequent fuel
cost) by using an alternate engine instead of a lycoming 0-320 or 0-360.
However, if your goal is to build a flying, traveling, airplane, you'll be
happier with the lycoming. You won't have to engineer a custom engine
mount, custom cooling and fuel systems, custom cable routings, custom
electrical system, etc. You won't have to do the follow-on development work
when/if your engineering wasn't quite good enough and the engine didn't run
right on your first test flight. Also, with a lycoming, when it breaks (all
engines and/or systems do - usually in somewhere the other side of
Timbuktu), you will be able to call a dozen different vendors and get THE
part you need Fed-Ex'ed to you the next day.

I have an 0-320 in my RV-6, and missed SnF a couple of years ago because my
neato electronic ignition died the day before the show, and the only guy in
the world with replacement parts was already at the show. I couldn't get in
touch with him to diagnose the problem or have parts shipped. That's the
kind of thing you run into with oddball *critical* equipment on your
airplane...

A fellow EAA'er just spend a YEAR post first flight working out development
issues with his auto conversion. He had the engine and other systems
running on a bench several years before he went flying, and still had plenty
of difficulties. Unless you're a tinkerer, not a flyer, go with a fully
developed engine installation.


KB

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

DAMN, Kyle !!!!
Have I died and gone to heaven? g


Barnyard BOb -- Over 50 years of flight
  #8  
Old October 5th 03, 09:27 PM
Ron Wanttaja
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 13:48:57 -0500, Barnyard BOb --
wrote:

DAMN, Kyle !!!!
Have I died and gone to heaven? g


Yes on one, no on two.

Ron "Laugh-a while you can, Monkey-Boy!" Wanttaja

  #9  
Old October 5th 03, 10:02 PM
Barnyard BOb --
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



DAMN, Kyle !!!!
Have I died and gone to heaven? g


Yes on one, no on two.

Ron "Laugh-a while you can, Monkey-Boy!" Wanttaja

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yes, Ron.
Bless Kevin and Kyle for their thoughtful input.

Perhaps it's time to retire from RAH
while I have some positive momentum.

NAH....
No way. ;-)

Barnyard BOb -- 3 cheers for today's Kansas City Chiefs









  #10  
Old October 5th 03, 10:41 PM
Kevin Horton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 17:02:28 -0500, Barnyard BOb -- wrote:



DAMN, Kyle !!!!
Have I died and gone to heaven? g


Yes on one, no on two.

Ron "Laugh-a while you can, Monkey-Boy!" Wanttaja

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yes, Ron.
Bless Kevin and Kyle for their thoughtful input.

Perhaps it's time to retire from RAH
while I have some positive momentum.

NAH....
No way. ;-)

Barnyard BOb -- 3 cheers for today's Kansas City Chiefs


I will admit that I was quite disturbed to find myself in agreement with
BOb for once. I'm hoping that means he is becoming more like me and not
the converse
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
e-mail: khorton02(_at_)rogers(_dot_)com

 




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