A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Military Aviation
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Pearl Harbor Defense



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old September 17th 04, 11:01 PM
Keith Willshaw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Marc Reeve" wrote in message
...
Pooh Bear wrote:



Wasn't HMS Illustrious slated to accompany them, until she grounded?


HMS Indomitable which was carrying Sea Hurricanes of 880
squadron and Fulmars of 800 Squadron IRC

Keith


Ads
  #22  
Old September 17th 04, 11:44 PM
Pooh Bear
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Keith Willshaw wrote:

"Marc Reeve" wrote in message
...
Pooh Bear wrote:



Wasn't HMS Illustrious slated to accompany them, until she grounded?


HMS Indomitable which was carrying Sea Hurricanes of 880
squadron and Fulmars of 800 Squadron IRC


That's the one.

According to this link, it suggests that she might have been sunk too -
which is odd in view of how useful aircraft would have been in the
encounter - and the fact that the site claims to represent the fleet air
arm !

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Sh...domitable.html


Graham

  #23  
Old September 18th 04, 02:05 AM
vincent p. norris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Impressive but is there even the slightest chance of hitting a ship
22 nm away?

Sure, if it's at anchor.


Sorry, I'm extremely skeptical about that. What would be the angle
between the bow and the stern of a very large ship, from 22 msiles
away?

A common tactic on all sides was lying off an
anchorage and plinking the sitting ducks.


Can you cite some examples from a standard WW II history?

vince norris
  #24  
Old September 18th 04, 02:44 AM
Mike Dargan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ragnar wrote:
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Mike Dargan" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s53...


The Pearl Harbor debacle is often blamed on lack of resources caused by
inadequate support from the politicians. Wrong. Short and Kimmel had
both quantitative and qualitative superiority but were hopelessly inept.


While agreeing on the ineptitiude its clear that the IJN had a clear
superiority in terms of modern fighter aircraft.


Dig out Gordon Prange's book and do the numbers. P40s were adequate
against the Japanese in China, thousands of miles from their supply
depots. Why wouldn't they bave been adequate over Oahu?

Also, why wasn't Kimmel running patrols? He didn't have resources to
cover 360 degrees, but he certainly could have covered the NW quadrant
for a couple of hundred miles. Washington had been bombing him with
warnings for weeks. Geez. Couldn't he have just read the newspapers?

Cheers

--mike



They also had better ships in many cases.



  #25  
Old September 18th 04, 02:46 AM
Mike Dargan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Tom Cervo wrote:

The Pearl Harbor debacle is often blamed on lack of resources caused by
inadequate support from the politicians. Wrong. Short and Kimmel had
both quantitative and qualitative superiority but were hopelessly inept.



Actually, they were probably quite able. They were simply expecting an attack
in the Far East, and that PH might face sabotage or submarine attack as the
base for the response for that attack. That remark (from Frank Knox?) about no,
they must mean the Phillippines, shows that it didn't stop with them.


They were running the biggest base in the Pacific and couldn't imagine
that the squinty eyed Japs would be able to find them.

--mike
  #26  
Old September 18th 04, 02:48 AM
Mike Dargan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Tom Cervo wrote:

The Pearl Harbor debacle is often blamed on lack of resources caused by
inadequate support from the politicians. Wrong. Short and Kimmel had
both quantitative and qualitative superiority but were hopelessly inept.



Actually, they were probably quite able. They were simply expecting an attack
in the Far East, and that PH might face sabotage or submarine attack as the
base for the response for that attack. That remark (from Frank Knox?) about no,
they must mean the Phillippines, shows that it didn't stop with them.


And another thing, if they expected an attack in the Phillipines, why
was the "American Caesar" caught thumbing his asshole while the Japs
shot up his planes on the ground?

Cheers

--mike
  #27  
Old September 18th 04, 02:58 AM
Mike Dargan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Cub Driver wrote:

On 15 Sep 2004 23:25:48 -0700, (Eunometic)
wrote:


The US Navy had fallen well behined in torpedo technology.



It was not just the performance specs, either. The USN torpedoes were
inacurrate, often running so deep that they passed under the enemy
ship. More than one American sub was sunk by its own torpedo. See
www.warbirdforum.com/okane.htm

Dick O'Kane (the subject of that book review) recalled that when word
went back to Washington about the faulty torpedoes, the brass blamed
the sub skippers for their tactics rather than examing the torpedo for
defects.


The problem was with the magnetic fuses. Again, the dimwits in charge
refused to do proper testing. The tests were expensive and the Navy
knew that their white engineers had innate superiority to gooks. This
oversight, along with some strange attack doctrine, extended the war and
cost us some sailors.

On the other hand, the Navy's analog computer (TDC), used for solving
targeting problems, was quite good.

Cheers.

--mike

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

  #28  
Old September 18th 04, 03:35 AM
Denyav
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dig out Gordon Prange's book and do the numbers. P40s were adequate
against the Japanese in China, thousands of miles from their supply
depots. Why wouldn't they bave been adequate over Oahu?

Also, why wasn't Kimmel running patrols? He didn't have resources to
cover 360 degrees, but he certainly could have covered the NW quadrant
for a couple of hundred miles. Washington had been bombing him with
warnings for weeks. Geez. Couldn't he have just read the newspapers?

Cheers



Who ordered Kimmel to abort exercise and bring ships back to anchorage area
immediately?

Who ordered to abort Halseys planned search and destroy Operation and moved
precious carriers away from PH?

Who witheld information from Kimmel and Short even though they always know the
whereabouts and the intent of Japanase fleet?

Unlike Al-Queda Japan was not an US proxy they were real opponents so nothing
should be done to alert japanase.
Because if they were deterred from making the attack whole Anglo plan would
collapse.

Since our minority Anglos have no republican guard divisions like Saddam
to control and oppress majority ,they must depend on PSYOPs like USS
Maine,Pearl Harbor,Operation Northwoods and 9/11 for the same purpose.

Killing US citizens or allowing others to kill US citizens is a time proven
method of our minority Anglos.

BTW Stinnett and Tolands books shed light to the Anglo PSYOP known as Pearl
Harbor attack.
  #29  
Old September 18th 04, 03:46 AM
Mike Dargan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Denyav wrote:
Dig out Gordon Prange's book and do the numbers. P40s were adequate
against the Japanese in China, thousands of miles from their supply
depots. Why wouldn't they bave been adequate over Oahu?

Also, why wasn't Kimmel running patrols? He didn't have resources to
cover 360 degrees, but he certainly could have covered the NW quadrant
for a couple of hundred miles. Washington had been bombing him with
warnings for weeks. Geez. Couldn't he have just read the newspapers?

Cheers




Who ordered Kimmel to abort exercise and bring ships back to anchorage area
immediately?


Neocons?


Who ordered to abort Halseys planned search and destroy Operation and moved
precious carriers away from PH?


George Bush?


Who witheld information from Kimmel and Short even though they always know the
whereabouts and the intent of Japanase fleet?


The mufdvr?


Unlike Al-Queda Japan was not an US proxy they were real opponents so nothing
should be done to alert japanase.


I prefer my japanase on the side, please. And hold the mayonese.

Because if they were deterred from making the attack whole Anglo plan would
collapse.


Indeed.


Since our minority Anglos have no republican guard divisions like Saddam
to control and oppress majority ,they must depend on PSYOPs like USS
Maine,Pearl Harbor,Operation Northwoods and 9/11 for the same purpose.


Precisely!


Killing US citizens or allowing others to kill US citizens is a time proven
method of our minority Anglos.

BTW Stinnett and Tolands books shed light to the Anglo PSYOP known as Pearl
Harbor attack.


Hmmm. How many Tolands does it take to screw up a PSYOP?

Cheers

--mike
  #30  
Old September 18th 04, 03:58 AM
Denyav
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Who ordered Kimmel to abort exercise and bring ships back to anchorage
area
immediately?


Neocons?


Stark


Who ordered to abort Halseys planned search and destroy Operation and moved
precious carriers away from PH?


George Bush?

Stark

Who witheld information from Kimmel and Short even though they always know

the
whereabouts and the intent of Japanase fleet?


The mufdvr?


Marshall&Stark

I prefer my japanase on the side, please. And hold the mayonese.


You can consider yourself lucky as long as they compete with US using
Toyotas,Lexuses Hondas ,Pioneers etc.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Remember Pearl Harbor: Special Program Tonight at EAA Fitzair4 Home Built 0 December 7th 04 07:40 PM
For Keith Willshaw... robert arndt Military Aviation 253 July 6th 04 05:18 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.