Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

Chris G. wrote:
Considering the most likely spot for a power-on stall is just
after takeoff, I want that spin training (which we're going to do in a
C150).

I'm quite happy with the training I was given that allows me to recognize an
impending stall and avoid that. If I don't stall the aircraft, it's not going to
spin.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:44:29 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
wrote:

I am reminded of a prospective pilot my employer was interviewing: what would he
do if he stumbled into a thunderstorm. Expecting the usual techniques, I was
surprised to hear him say: "I don't go into thunderstorms". My boss kept
pushing him on the subject: "Well, if you somehow did, what would you do?" The
prospect kept bleating he didn't fly in thunderstorms. Well, I don't either,
willingly, but sometimes they're hiding out there. He might as well have said
he didn't ever fly in real IFR. He didn't get the job.

What is the answer your boss wants to hear?

Corky Scott

Corky Scott wrote:

What is the answer your boss wants to hear?

That's the correct question to ask.

From what I've read, I think the "book" answer is to maintain attitude control
as well as possible, don't worry about altitude excursions much, and try to get
out of it. I've read differing opinions on the best way to accomplish the
latter; some people like a 180 and others say that the shortest way out may be
straight ahead. Communication with ATC also has to be fit in there somewhere.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

Teranews wrote:
"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
om...
It's all extremely logical.

Try lifting a Lear 24B from the very end of a runway by "pucker" factor
alone, then we'll talk. There should be a another column in the takeoff
distance charts, labeled "Fire warning activated, Single Engine past V1,
Night, Ice/Snow, High Altitude, Heavy, over a 1000' obstacle. Hint: turn the
landing light off.


When he made that statement about logic I decided he was determined to be stupid
about this. If he's lucky, he'll never have to find out why I say that.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Corky Scott wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:44:29 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
wrote:

I am reminded of a prospective pilot my employer was interviewing: what
would he do if he stumbled into a thunderstorm. Expecting the usual
techniques, I was surprised to hear him say: "I don't go into
thunderstorms". My boss kept pushing him on the subject: "Well, if you
somehow did, what would you do?" The prospect kept bleating he didn't fly
in thunderstorms. Well, I don't either, willingly, but sometimes they're
hiding out there. He might as well have said he didn't ever fly in real
IFR. He didn't get the job.

What is the answer your boss wants to hear?


Lower your seat all the way, put on your hat, tighten your seat belt *tight*,
turn up the instrument lights to their brightest setting (day or night), reduce
power, reduce speed to maneuvering speed, say a prayer. Did I forget anything?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

George Patterson wrote:
From what I've read, I think the "book" answer is to maintain attitude control
as well as possible, don't worry about altitude excursions much, and try to
get out of it. I've read differing opinions on the best way to accomplish the
latter; some people like a 180 and others say that the shortest way out may be
straight ahead. Communication with ATC also has to be fit in there somewhere.


Don't worry about altitude excursions *at all*. My father told me about
crossing the Sea of Japan and getting caught in a thunderstorm. Upon being
querried by the copilot, he told him: "Don't worry everybody is in the same
updraft". That may or may not be true but more aircraft are bent by
overstressing than by collision. I've been at idle with the nose pointing
downhill and been climbing at a rate that pegged the VSI upward. I chose to let
the altitude go. Talking to ATC is a low priority compared to keeping the wings
level. That is your primary concern... wings level.

I'm a believer in the straight ahead method unless you have a reason not to.
Remember, thunderstorms are shaped like a "V" with the narrowest point down low.
Sometimes ATC will swear there's a huge area in front of you when in fact there
are numerous holes... down low. I prefer to fly underneath if at all possible.
With embedded storms, that isn't possible. You take what you get and hope you
get spit out on the other side intact.

They are *very* scary.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

george wrote:


Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

Ron Natalie wrote:

Dropping a wing is not a spin, just a sloppy stall. The time is better
spent on nailing stalls than spinning the airplane.


Irregardless, the sight picture of a spin is unforgetable and unmistakable...
once you know what it looks like. An approach to stall isn't the same as a
stall. If you've ever carried a load of ice on the hairy edge of a stall,
you'll appreciate being able to balance yourself on the line if necessary.

I had a 135 checkride in a C-402 once where the check airman said, "let's do
stalls". OK, to me, that means STALL. It doesn't mean approach to stall. My
first 135 chief pilot, a grizzlied old USAF pilot, taught me to do full stalls
in the 402.

Good God... you would have thought I farted in church by the stunned reaction I
got when I didn't recover when the first burble was felt. I recovered
immediately after I felt the aircraft stall, and not before. "Let's try that
again", he said. We did the same thing again. It was only after some
discussion that I found that he meant to recover before I actually stalled.

The other guy along for the ride claimed that he NEVER did full stalls in a
twin. Well, it takes all kinds I guess. If it was good enough for my old chief
pilot it was good enough for me, but if these guys wanted a recovery initiated
when the stall is imminent, I can do that too. And did.

If anybody doesn't know, the C-402 stalls the same as the C-172. I don't
recommend it with asymetrical power though....


I'd rather find that out by going through it as an exercise rather than
discover it turning final one engine out in turbulence ..
and you're point about recovery on the onset of the stall
It is a commonly taught exercise nowadays


Agreed. When I got my ticket back in 85, spin training was not required.
I got my instructor to show ne proper recovery technique.
Since that time every so often when I'm up, over a non populated area I
have at it. I usually do a power off stall with the nose as hard up as
it will go. Kick in rudder and do a wingover. Usually get recovered
and back to straight and level within a turn and a half and 100 feet alt
loss. It's a lot of fun and the training could save your ass one day.
I agree with george. On final is not the place to learn.

On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:37:20 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
wrote:

Don't worry about altitude excursions *at all*. My father told me about
crossing the Sea of Japan and getting caught in a thunderstorm. Upon being
querried by the copilot, he told him: "Don't worry everybody is in the same
updraft". That may or may not be true but more aircraft are bent by
overstressing than by collision. I've been at idle with the nose pointing
downhill and been climbing at a rate that pegged the VSI upward. I chose to let
the altitude go. Talking to ATC is a low priority compared to keeping the wings
level. That is your primary concern... wings level.

I'm a believer in the straight ahead method unless you have a reason not to.
Remember, thunderstorms are shaped like a "V" with the narrowest point down low.
Sometimes ATC will swear there's a huge area in front of you when in fact there
are numerous holes... down low. I prefer to fly underneath if at all possible.
With embedded storms, that isn't possible. You take what you get and hope you
get spit out on the other side intact.

They are *very* scary.

The one I passed close to while flying to Oshkosh in the UPF-7 Waco
was scary enough, and we were trying to stay away from it. This was
easy to do though because the cells were widely isolated and the
visibility between them was very good. It was late in the afternoon
which greatly contributed to their presence.

As I mentioned, the clouds were a vicious dark blue/green color and
the pure white column of rain coming down on the center of Chicago
literally blotted out the entire center of the city. Lightning bolts
were striking all around the water column every two to three seconds.
Wish I'd had a camcorder along.

Couldn't imagine attempting to fly through it because of the dense
column of water and lightning strikes. And I'm not even going to
think about the turbulence...

Anyone read that story about the fighter pilot who bailed out of his
jet and floated down through a thundercell? I use the word "floated"
loosely, it took him a long time between plummeting down and being
blasted up, all the while being cannonaded by blasts of lightning and
ear piercing concussions of thunder.

Guess it wasn't his day to go that day.

Did a quick Google search and found the story:
http://www.aero.com/publications/par...610/pc1096.htm

Corky Scott

George Patterson wrote:
Corky Scott wrote:

What is the answer your boss wants to hear?

That's the correct question to ask.

From what I've read, I think the "book" answer is to maintain attitude control
as well as possible, don't worry about altitude excursions much, and try to get
out of it. I've read differing opinions on the best way to accomplish the
latter; some people like a 180 and others say that the shortest way out may be
straight ahead. Communication with ATC also has to be fit in there somewhere.


I'm a fan for the 180.
Penetration of turbulance I'd slow the a/c and maintain direction (yes,
I've flown sailplanes in wave and viewed rotor from the wrong side)

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
.. .
Dave Stadt wrote:
So I'm curious. Have you ever spun an airplane?

Yep.


And you learned *nothing* worthwhile from that experience? I sure found
it an
eye opener the one time I inadvertently spun. If I hadn't known what it
was and
what to do about it I could see myself augering in.

On a practical note, I used to fly overgrossed aircraft from time to time.
I've
also carried my share of ice. To suggest that I'd never stall/spin
involves a
whole bunch of wishing.

You honestly believe spin training would save you if you spun with a load of
ice? Surely you jest.