Flying in the USA vs. Europe

Andrew,

What is involved in getting an IFR clearance in Europe?
Are "GPS direct" as common as they are here?

You'll be sorry you asked ;-)

Getting directs is very common. Filing directs is extremely uncommon.

Your flight plan has to be accepted by Eurocontrol's Central Flight
Management Unit CFMU. In order to be accepted by their computer, it has
to adhere to all route restrictions applicable on that day. It can be
extremely convoluted to find an acceptable route on a longer flight, but
it is quite easy on shorter flights. Mostly, directs are not allowed
between points farther apart than 40 or 50 nm. Also, some airports
and/or routes have flow restrictions and require slots. Then there's
enroute user fees for any aircraft with an MTOW of 2 metric tons or
greater.

There is only one prohibitively expensive flight planning software
taking all the restrictions (remember, they are time dependent) into
account while generating automatic routes - and a website run by flight
simulator enthusiasts that generates mostly valid flightplans for free
(ah, the irony!). With a little tweaking, those work great.

The acceptable flight plans can be very complex and convoluted, however,
you'll never fly them as filed and often get directs. The fact that each
EU country still insists on having their own ATC doesn't help much,
either.

CFMU has a website where you can test if your flight plan conforms to
the CMFU rules in advance. Very helpful. If it gets accepted there,
it'll work.

You have to file an hour in advance.

Other than that, it's easy.

However, many countries in Europe have more peculiarities: Some have no
IFR approaches in Class G airspace, some don't allow IAPs without an
official observer present at the field. This makes the number of fields
with IAPs much smaller than in the US.

The IR is still very useful since the weather isn't that great in
central Europe.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Mar 16, 9:44 am, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
Actually, it's a basic mindset. US Americans often expect the whole
world to be the same as it is at home, more or less. If something is
different, then it's a hassle.

Actually, this is a basic stereotype of America.

On this little trip alone we have shown our kids so many different
cultures, it's astounding that they are all contained within one
country. From the West Virginians (who spoke little, but when they
did speak we couldn't understand a single word) to the island folks on
Ocracoke (now THERE is a different lifestyle, living on a spit of land
in the Atlantic) to the warm and friendly southerners in South
Carolina, to the black people who volunteered to watch our car for us
on Beale Street (in exchange for beer money), to the incredibly funny
Elvis look-alikes from the Ukraine (yes, there were several of them --
and they were on the Sun Records tour with us), to the somber black
folks at the National Civil Rights Museum (the motel where Martin
Luther King, Jr. was killed), we have seen and interacted with so many
cultures, from so many places.

And, although we see many cultures routinely at the hotel, it's always
more fun to be on THEIR turf, eating THEIR food, and soaking up THEIR
history. Traveling around America, especially in a light plane, where
you can change venues so quickly, is truly a marvelous education.

As to the financial question: Yes, flying in Europe is a lot more
expensive. Take a factor of 2 as a rough estimate.

That is so frustrating. We want to show our kids our European roots,
but the thought of riding a train -- even a very nice train -- just
isn't as appealing as flying a light plane. I just don't see any way
to ever be able to afford it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay,

Having grown up in a small island nation, it always amazed me that I
can fly in the U.S. for 5 hours in an airline and still be speaking
the same language, deal in the same currency and eat more or less the
same food. You can even shop at the same store, eat at the same
restaurant and sleep at the same hotel.

If you travelled 2500 miles in Europe or Asia you will cover vast
distances in terms of language, religion, politics, currency and
cuisine. The cultural diversity you encounter in the U.S in the same
distance pales in comparison.

There is great truth in what the other poster said about Americans
expecting the whole world to be the same. I have traveled in Europe
and Asia, and you can spot an American easily because they are the
ones who insist on speaking English, have specific eating and sleeping
criteria. Most of the other travelers (particularly Europeans) had no
qualms about staying at local hostels, eating at roadside restaurants
and chatting with the locals in their language. I found American
tourists were typically older, had more money, and were traveling in
groups or charted bus tours and typically seen around major tourist
attractions. Europeans, Canadians and Australians were much younger,
and were traveling off the beaten path.

However, the cultural uniformity across the U.S. is also our strength.
This is what allows us to function as a whole without conflict achieve
economic strength. This is also why flying is so much better here.

Thomas,

Mostly, directs are not allowed
between points farther apart than 40 or 50 nm.


I should be clear: Filing such directs is not allowed. You'll fly much
longer directs.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

James Sleeman wrote:
We'll be flying home tomorrow, completing a relatively
simple VFR flight of 1977 miles.

...

It would be an interesting (if frightening) exercise to see what
this flight in Europe would entail


Heh, at least Europe and America have the option of such flights,
imagine living here in New Zealand, our country is only about 1000
miles tip to toe and about 250 at it's widest.

There was a news item here a few days ago about a pilot who had just
completed a landing at every listed airfield in the country. I bet
anybody in the US simply couldn't imagine that being possible.

Of course, if we want to actually cross a border we have to overfly
hundreds of miles of open cold and mostly empty ocean just to get to
Norfolk Island (and for the brave, some more hundreds of miles to get
to Lord Howe, and some more hundreds of miles after that to get to
Australia).

In short, we are a bloody long way away from everywhere.


I have always wanted to visit your country. I got close in '87 to
Sydney. Then for my 60th birthday my wife was going to plan a trip there
but it got too expensive, so we went to the Balkins. I'll get there
sometime.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

There is great truth in what the other poster said about Americans
expecting the whole world to be the same. I have traveled in Europe
and Asia, and you can spot an American easily because they are the
ones who insist on speaking English, have specific eating and sleeping
criteria. Most of the other travelers (particularly Europeans) had no
qualms about staying at local hostels, eating at roadside restaurants
and chatting with the locals in their language. I found American
tourists were typically older, had more money, and were traveling in
groups or charted bus tours and typically seen around major tourist
attractions. Europeans, Canadians and Australians were much younger,
and were traveling off the beaten path.

I think this is changing with many of our
youth. My daughter has no problem with
grabbing a backpack and sleeping bag and
heading out on a new adventure with minimal
planning and organization. Many college
age students do this and hopefully they will
turn into middle-aged people that are more
flexable.

I've spent months in Japan living on the
economy and a week in a construction camp
in the Sierra Madres. Not to mention some
military time in Germany. I've used about
every kind of toilet in the world and not
complained. That must count for something (:

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
Jay,

It would be an interesting (if frightening) exercise to see what this
flight in Europe would entail, from a financial as well as technical
standpoint. Can any or our European brethren take a whack at it?


What are you trying to get at? We all know flying is more expensive
here. That's the same for short and long flights.


snip

I think all Jay was trying to do was learn. We Americans tend to be
dreadfully ignorant, but at least some of us want to learn and enjoy
learning. ;^)

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
...
As to the financial question: Yes, flying in Europe is a lot more
expensive. Take a factor of 2 as a rough estimate.

That is so frustrating. We want to show our kids our European roots,
but the thought of riding a train -- even a very nice train -- just
isn't as appealing as flying a light plane. I just don't see any way
to ever be able to afford it.

Yes, unless you are independantly wealthy, there is no way to actually spend
any significant time in Europe.

On the other hand, there are a lot of good computer resources to let you
simulate your travel - without all the inconvienances. You could even buy a
European scenery add on for your msfs and it will be just like actually
flying all over Europe - except, of course, for the cost.

Shouldn't take long before your kids would actualy be more knowledgeable
than anyone who actually attempts to live there in person on a limted
budget.

:-}

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

Larry Dighera wrote:
On 16 Mar 2007 06:44:45 -0700, "Jay Honeck" wrote
in .com:

but the thought of riding a train -- even a very nice train -- just
isn't as appealing as flying a light plane.

Agreed. But Europe's high-speed trains are a far superior experience
to airline travel; no standing in line, fast, room to walk about,
roomy seats, a club car, no waiting for baggage...

I agree. I had never ridden a passenger train prior to living in
England for several months. My wife and I took a train from Chester to
London and back and it was great. We paid a little extra for first
class (still pretty reasonable) and had an entire car to ourselves on
the way down (the coach cars were PACKED) and had one other couple in
our car on the return. Very nice ride and very relaxing.

Not as much fun as flying to be sure, but certainly something different
to experience and is something you should consider.

Matt

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well for a start, it would require considerably more planning but bank on
avgas costing in the region of $9 a gallon.

That alone would eliminate any possibility of making this trip. After
paying $2.30 per gallon at home (car gas), I have found paying $4+ per
gallon to be ghastly.

Too bad -- I would love to do a similar "barnstorming tour" of Europe,
someday...
--

Just a thought... the diesel fleet is growing, maybe there are some DA40
TDI's or re-engined C172s for hire?
Granted, the Thielert has fewer horsepower than you're accustomed to, but
fuel cost should be somewhere around $4/gallon.

Jay Honeck wrote:

That is so frustrating. We want to show our kids our European roots,
but the thought of riding a train -- even a very nice train -- just
isn't as appealing as flying a light plane. I just don't see any way
to ever be able to afford it.

well, you might compromise a bit; trains to actually go places (remember
that i) shorter distances and higher density of population make it
quite a practical mode of transportation more often than not faster than
flying the airlines -- and without the hassle; and ii) trains in Europe
go reasonably fast; and iii) you might be able to buy passes
in USA providing you with significant discounts); and flying a light
plane in places that are not completely GA hostile, e.g., in UK where you
can rent/fly a G- registered aircraft with your FAA certificate, no
extra paperwork; you might want to explore what's available in ex- Eastern
Europe countries as well.

--Sylvain