boycott united forever

gatt wrote:

They're probably better off finding work at a company that won't screw them
and the taxpayers based on poor executive decisions.

*You* try finding a decent job when you're in your 50s. No, they won't
discriminate on age, they'll just tell you they're looking for someone with less
experience.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
nk.net...

"John Galban" wrote in message
oups.com...

gatt wrote:

Are you saying my father isn't "smart"? Are you saying that company
loyalty
and hard work isn't smart?


I'm really sorry to hear about your father's financial predicament,
but to answer your question, hard work is very smart, company loyalty
is an anachronism from a bygone era. It hasn't been a relevant concept
for decades.

Pledging your future to a faceless corporation is great for the
corporation, but as your father found out, it's a one-way street.
Tactics like getting rid of an employee on the eve of retirement (to
save a few bucks) are fairly commonplace. On top of that, banking
your retirement on the fact that a corporation will not only be in
business, but be profitable enough to support all of the former
employees is quite a gamble. Even large corporations fold on a fairly
regular basis.

I've only been in the workforce for about 26 yrs and have never
understood pensions. It requires a huge leap of faith in a
corporation. I equate it to keeping all of your retirement savings in
one stock. Not a financially sound move by any measure.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)


It isn't supposed to require either a leap of faith or the company
remaining
in business. The Company is suppose to deposit money to fund the pension
plan which is a trust with an independent board. The funds are
professionally managed and, barring catastrophe, there should be enough to
pay the promised benefits.

Mike
MU-2

That is only true in some cases and only recently have laws been passed to
make sure the money is actually there. The golden rule is fund your own
retirement. What has happened to Uniteds pension is by no means unique or
unusual. Up until recently all pension monies could be invested in the
corporations own stock.

Mike Rapoport wrote:

It isn't supposed to require either a leap of faith or the company remaining
in business. The Company is suppose to deposit money to fund the pension
plan which is a trust with an independent board. The funds are
professionally managed and, barring catastrophe, there should be enough to
pay the promised benefits.

The problem is that the funds are typically invested in stocks and/or bonds. If
the market is doing well, the employer only has to contribute money for
relatively new employees -- employees who have been there a while already have
substantial funds, and the returns on that provide the necessary increase. If,
however, the market isn't doing well, the company has to make continuing
deposits, usually at a time in which they aren't making very much themselves.

My former employer is typical in this regard. In early 2001, the market was
still cooking, and my former employer had the pension funds in stocks. As the
market collapsed later in the year, there was a rush to shift everything to
bonds. Then came the ENRON scandal. Congress reacted to that by increasing the
amount of equity employers had to keep in their pension plans. That meant that
companies that had pension plans suddenly had to scrape up substantial amounts
of cash to add to them at a time that the market was forcing them to divert more
and more of their income to the plans anyway.

My company reacted in two ways. First, they laid off anyone who was close to
either a 2 year or a 5 year service anniversary (those are the dates that
pensions become partially and fully vested). That freed up a lot of funds that
could be allocated to pensions for other employees. Second, they changed the
pension plan to a "cash balance payout" plan. This works sort of like Bush's
"private account" option for Social Security. The company pays in a certain
amount into your pension. If the market does well during your career, you'll get
a big lump sum when you retire; if not, you'll get a tiny lump sum when you retire.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:6TSge.30596$fI.11949@fed1read05...
you work and build a retirement plan based on what you have done and what
the company promised..
and then after you retire.. the company cuts your planned pension from
$60-70K to $45K
how are you going to live now... sell everything you have.. and buy
something cheaper..
unless you already did that to retire..

In that case you screwed up. Planning on retirement income outside what you
have stashed away is foolhardy.

StellaStarr wrote:

You seem to think a pension is some kind of welfare.
It's money you arranged to have taken out of your paycheck, to save up
for retirement.

You're thinking of a 401K. A pension used to be a guaranteed retirement income
in exchange for spending your life working for the company. One could argue that
you exchanged a higher salary for a lower salary and a pension, but no money
was taken out of your paycheck.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
k.net...

"gatt" wrote in message
...
If they're smart, they'll leave. The company has already shown what its
word is worth. Would you work for someone that broke promises to pay
you?

My dad worked there for 24 years. They laid him off before he could
retire,
but he was promised his pension when he reached retirement age. Too late
for to "leave."

Are you saying my father isn't "smart"? Are you saying that company
loyalty
and hard work isn't smart?

-c


Well the infomation that UAL was not funding the pension obligation was/is
readily availible in Uniteds SEC filings. Personally if I was depending
on someone/something to send me money for decades, I would verify that the
money was there. The reality is that this might be too much to expect
from individual employees, but there is no excuse for the unions not
demanding that the pension plans be funded.

Mike
MU-2

The unions only care you pay them. Only a fool believes a union is their to
take care of them.

"StellaStarr" wrote in message
news:vmVge.74711$r53.43567@attbi_s21...
Jay Honeck wrote:


Speaking as one of the millions who have never had a pension plan -- and
never will -- $45K per year for sitting around the house sounds pretty
danged good.

You seem to think a pension is some kind of welfare.
It's money you arranged to have taken out of your paycheck, to save up
for retirement.

No it isn't. Pension money is fully funded by thr corporation. Nobody at
United has lost a penny of their own money. 401K and similar programs are
not pensions.

You know...a "personal account."

And the "sitting around" part is supposed to be the retirement they
worked for all those years. They were wrong to plan for that?

Planning your retirement on pension money being available is foolhardy.

One of us seems to be failing to understand something..

I believe it is you.

Their is only one person who will take care of you and that is yourself.
The corporate world has to answer to the stock holder not the employee.

On Fri, 13 May 2005 03:42:19 GMT, StellaStarr
wrote:

Jay Honeck wrote:


Speaking as one of the millions who have never had a pension plan -- and
never will -- $45K per year for sitting around the house sounds pretty
danged good.

Seems like you'd be setting up your own pension plan. I did in
addition to the one from my employer.


You seem to think a pension is some kind of welfare.
It's money you arranged to have taken out of your paycheck, to save up
for retirement.

You know...a "personal account."

And the "sitting around" part is supposed to be the retirement they
worked for all those years. They were wrong to plan for that?

Just because they agreed to have that set aside for them instead of
pay to take home? Part of mine came out of my pay check.

Also for ordinary folks who pay into a pension plan, now days the
money is supposed to go with them when they change jobs. One company
I worked for way back in the 60s had the money I had paid in
transferred to the retirement account of my new employer.

The retirement package is part of the benefits they and their employer
agreed to "in writing" when they started the job. They could have
settled for more money and no pension, but that would have been a poor
trade.

Both I and the company I worked for, paid into an account kept in
escrow for something like 33 years.

I also invested every cent I could get hold of, so now that I'm
retired I don't have to set around the house. I can go play.


One of us seems to be failing to understand something...

Probably over half the population have that problem. :-))

They should start teach investing practices some where around the 8th
grade. If young people would start out saving instead of buying new,
big cars and trucks (one of the worst investments you can make) and
purchased stock on a diversified plan with a good investment counselor
most could probably retire in their 40s.

I was lucky I had smart parents even if my mother only had a high
school education and my dad never made it out of the 8th grade. He had
to work. Still, most thought he at least had some college. They
taught me the meaning of a dollar, but had I listened better I could
have retired a lot younger. As it was, I was 50 when I received my
Bachelors degree. Worked seven more years and retired.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

George Patterson wrote in news:HmVge.4961$1f5.2283
@trndny01:

Montblack wrote:

6. Morning shift at McDonald's is usually the older English speaking
gals.

Home Depot pays more and has more interesting work.

Yeah, like building nice shaded waiting areas for the illegal
aliens to wait while they solicit for pay-under-the-table work.



George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

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