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#1
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Cessna 152
I'm taking my PPL and trying to locate a
decent/depedable 152 to purchase rather than keep renting.Also how many hours on the TTAF time is too many before problems arise. It seems most flight schools are selling around 9k-10k hours? Any 152 sellers out there? Thanks Jay Nashville TN *** Sent via http://www.automationtools.com *** Add a newsgroup interface to your website today. |
#2
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Jay wrote: I'm taking my PPL and trying to locate a decent/depedable 152 to purchase rather than keep renting. Try Vicky of Vermont. She's high, but has a good rep. Also get "plugged in" to the community at your local airport. The best deals don't get advertised much (if at all). Hang around the airport and listen to hangar tales a bit. Let people know you're looking. I would probably be flying a Bonanza now if I had done that when I got my PPC. Also how many hours on the TTAF time is too many before problems arise. You can keep one of these planes going about forever, but you will find that other people will be reluctant to buy a plane with more than about 6,000 hours on it. That means that it may take you a while to sell it when the time comes. Keep an eye on the ads for these high-time school planes you're looking at and see how long it takes them to get rid of it. Sooner or later, you'll be in the same boat. It seems most flight schools are selling around 9k-10k hours? I would avoid one being sold by a flight school unless it has a mid-time engine and has required little engine work during the last run. Schools usually keep a spare engine so they can do a fast engine swap when they hit TBO. If they decide to sell the plane at TBO and have a lemon engine, that's the one that'll wind up in your plane. You can expect to put a few thousand into a school plane for cosmetic stuff, and the avionics will probably be functional antiques, but the prices are usually discounted accordingly. George Patterson If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging the problem. |
#3
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1. Join AOPA and learn about their escrow purchase agreement and title
services for airplane purchasers. Aircraft do not have titles, they have "bill of sale" that records legal ownership trail. 2. Subscribe to Trade a Plane. Ads are online also www.tradeaplane.com 3. Find a potential aircraft, the closer the better in TAP or elsewhere. 4. Call the owner, get the information on the plane, if the price seems right (there is a appraiser in TAP online that gives asking price in TAP, usually the actual price will be a little lower), call a mechanic at the airport where the plane is and tell him you will need him to do a compression test and spend an hour looking at the logbooks. Don't get into a "prebuy", just two hours to look the plane and books over. 5. Fly (rent) or drive to the airport, meet the owner, make sure he IS the owner, (get a xerox of his drivers license), and look at the registration of the plane. Check all the paint, seats, interior, lights, radios and appearance of the plane. 6. Go for a flight with the owner or an instructor and see if the gyros, radios, and everything else works. Check to see the plane flies straight, and flies well, and everything works (or if it doesn't note it). Call ATC and see if the transponder is working (get flight following). Most radios or gyros either work, or they don't work. Note anything that doesn't work. 7. If all is OK so far, take the plane to the mechanic, have him do a compresson test and cut open the oil filter and look at the logbooks. If it fails to have goood compression in ALL cylinders, then you have an engine rebuild to look at. Unless you want a project, skip this plane and keep looking. Any damage history not properly repaired would probably disqualify the plane. Old planes aren't perfect, and if you want perfect, you will have to pay for it. Yes there are pristine airplanes out there, but not 30 year old pristine ones. But the plane should be airworthy with an engine making good compressions, no misrepaired damage, and you should know if anything doesn't work. 8. If all is ok, call AOPA and do a title search on the plane. Find out if there are any liens (loan related) on the plane. 9. If you insist on a prebuy or an annual, this is probably the place to do it. 10. If all is still ok, negotiate an agreed on price, fill out the purchase agreement making sure you address dates of delivery, method of delivery, and everything else you can think of. Send the deposit to AOPA escrow services, NOT to the owner. 11. Call AOPA and Avemco and other insurance companies and get insurance quote. 12. Take delivery of the plane, instruct AOPA to wire the deposit to the owner, wire the balance to the owner, call your insurance agent and activate your insurance. 13. If you are not checked out in this type of aircraft, or even if you are, your best insurance is to get a qualified instructor to fly with you. Make sure you are legally qualified and competent in the plane before you solo. Don't let the excitement of a new plane get in the way of safe, competent pilot technique. The first few hours in your new plane are high risk. Take some precautions to keep things safe. Get some instruction, even if it's only an hour or two. 14. Fly the plane and enjoy! |
#4
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Don't buy a 150!!!
Get something a little larger, faster and carries more people. The 150 is only a trainer and doesn't have much functionality. Just my $0.02 worth. Dave Doug wrote: 1. Join AOPA and learn about their escrow purchase agreement and title services for airplane purchasers. Aircraft do not have titles, they have "bill of sale" that records legal ownership trail. 2. Subscribe to Trade a Plane. Ads are online also www.tradeaplane.com 3. Find a potential aircraft, the closer the better in TAP or elsewhere. 4. Call the owner, get the information on the plane, if the price seems right (there is a appraiser in TAP online that gives asking price in TAP, usually the actual price will be a little lower), call a mechanic at the airport where the plane is and tell him you will need him to do a compression test and spend an hour looking at the logbooks. Don't get into a "prebuy", just two hours to look the plane and books over. 5. Fly (rent) or drive to the airport, meet the owner, make sure he IS the owner, (get a xerox of his drivers license), and look at the registration of the plane. Check all the paint, seats, interior, lights, radios and appearance of the plane. 6. Go for a flight with the owner or an instructor and see if the gyros, radios, and everything else works. Check to see the plane flies straight, and flies well, and everything works (or if it doesn't note it). Call ATC and see if the transponder is working (get flight following). Most radios or gyros either work, or they don't work. Note anything that doesn't work. 7. If all is OK so far, take the plane to the mechanic, have him do a compresson test and cut open the oil filter and look at the logbooks. If it fails to have goood compression in ALL cylinders, then you have an engine rebuild to look at. Unless you want a project, skip this plane and keep looking. Any damage history not properly repaired would probably disqualify the plane. Old planes aren't perfect, and if you want perfect, you will have to pay for it. Yes there are pristine airplanes out there, but not 30 year old pristine ones. But the plane should be airworthy with an engine making good compressions, no misrepaired damage, and you should know if anything doesn't work. 8. If all is ok, call AOPA and do a title search on the plane. Find out if there are any liens (loan related) on the plane. 9. If you insist on a prebuy or an annual, this is probably the place to do it. 10. If all is still ok, negotiate an agreed on price, fill out the purchase agreement making sure you address dates of delivery, method of delivery, and everything else you can think of. Send the deposit to AOPA escrow services, NOT to the owner. 11. Call AOPA and Avemco and other insurance companies and get insurance quote. 12. Take delivery of the plane, instruct AOPA to wire the deposit to the owner, wire the balance to the owner, call your insurance agent and activate your insurance. 13. If you are not checked out in this type of aircraft, or even if you are, your best insurance is to get a qualified instructor to fly with you. Make sure you are legally qualified and competent in the plane before you solo. Don't let the excitement of a new plane get in the way of safe, competent pilot technique. The first few hours in your new plane are high risk. Take some precautions to keep things safe. Get some instruction, even if it's only an hour or two. 14. Fly the plane and enjoy! |
#5
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Jay wrote:
: I'm taking my PPL and trying to locate a : decent/depedable 152 to purchase rather than : keep renting. I understand the desire to buy a plane for instruction. I didn't do that, and ended up spending a fair bit more money on my license than I needed. A Cessna-152 or 150 makes a great trainer and is probably what you are used to flying, but you should consider what you plan on using it for when you finish your license. If you're like me, you think you'll be happy with something to bop around the pattern.... which gets boring surprisingly quickly. I was (fortunately) swayed into buying a Cherokee instead. It's just as cheap to maintain (fixed gear/prop, common engine/airframe), negligibly more expensive to operate (you don't have to fly at 75%, you know), and can be had for slightly more than a Cessna 152. If you can do cargas, a Cessna-150 or Cherokee-140 runs great on it for cheap. When you're done with your license, you can pack two people in it with baggage and fuel, or three with less and go somewhere. The Cessnas seem to carry a bit more market value for a roughly equivalent airplane. They all fly the same, however. Hope that helps a bit... just what worked out for me and a few of my pilot buddies. -Cory -- ************************************************** *********************** * The prime directive of Linux: * * - learn what you don't know, * * - teach what you do. * * (Just my 20 USm$) * ************************************************** *********************** |
#6
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Jay wrote in message ...
I'm taking my PPL and trying to locate a decent/depedable 152 to purchase rather than keep renting.Also how many hours on the TTAF time is too many before problems arise. It seems most flight schools are selling around 9k-10k hours? Any 152 sellers out there? Thanks Jay Nashville TN *** Sent via http://www.automationtools.com *** Add a newsgroup interface to your website today. What's your bracketed expense range you can afford to pay, Jay? A Cessna 150 or 152 is really of limited value other than for weekend jaunts and local flights/training. If you have any fattys or bigguns in your family, you'll be disappointed in its performance in the summertime and likely be flying close to gross all the time. If the airplane is really just for yourself and the ocassional passenger, the C152 is a good deal. It's a horrible one if you want to carry any non-pilot types more than 100 miles. If you can find a C175 with a solid airframe, there are some attractive options which allow you to basically get a C182 equiv performance for a C172 price... I'd Examine the 220 Franklin and the 180 Lyc conversions, in that order. C175s are horribly undervalued in todays marketplace, and I'd hunt for one with a runout engine and crappy paint. (You always need a hot paintjob to go with a hot engine) Check out some examples: http://www.geocities.com/greatpunkin170b/ http://www.eaa1000.av.org/progsumm/feb96/franklin.htm http://franklinengines.com/cessna.cfm http://www.hangar9aeroworks.com/108TweedieF-220.html http://www.taildraggers.com/PersonalWebPage.aspx?jeff http://www.taildraggers.com/old/airp...0/jmfr220.html http://franklinengines.com/ I was researching this for awhile, but came across a Bonanza for a steal so I never chased this dream. I kinda wish I would have though because the Bonanza is a blood sucking slug living inside my wallet. |
#7
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Eric Ulmer wrote:
: If you can find a C175 with a solid airframe, there are some : attractive options which allow you to basically get a C182 equiv : performance for a C172 price... : I'd Examine the 220 Franklin and the 180 Lyc conversions, in that : order. : C175s are horribly undervalued in todays marketplace, and I'd hunt for : one with a runout engine and crappy paint. : (You always need a hot paintjob to go with a hot engine) True... I looked into C-175's before. The GO-300 is too weird for words (read: expensive and cantankerous). An O-360 conversion would make for a really great plane. Trouble is if they've been converted, they're priced much higher, and if they haven't it's quite expensive to upgrade. If you can find one, however, they *are* undervalued for the amount of airplane you get -Cory -- ************************************************** *********************** * The prime directive of Linux: * * - learn what you don't know, * * - teach what you do. * * (Just my 20 USm$) * ************************************************** *********************** |
#8
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We all go through the "dang, I want to buy an airplane" phase while getting
our PPL. But buying a C152 is like marrying the first girl you kiss. It seems like a good idea at the time. Get your PPL and try a few other models of aircraft. Figure out what kind of flying you like to do before you buy. If you buy a 152, odds are you'll outgrow it quickly. Also, don't make the assumption that you save money by owning. As a rule of thumb, you must fly about 200 hours a year to make owning more cost effective than renting. I'm taking my PPL and trying to locate a decent/depedable 152 to purchase rather than keep renting. |
#9
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: Also, don't make the assumption that you save money by owning. As a rule of
: thumb, you must fly about 200 hours a year to make owning more cost : effective than renting. That seems a bit high to me. Trouble with "rules of thumb" is that nothing in aviation makes any sense. If you're the kind of guy who doesn't like to or have time to work on it, then annuals can be very expensive. If you find a good mechanic who'll work with you, it doesn't have to be that much. Biggest trouble is finding a mechanic that knows what he's doing, and isn't a, "Let's replace that and see if it fixes the problem." These are probably reasonable numbers for the biggest things, (assuming you can buy it outright. If you have you finance, add that in too): Insurance: $1200 for student pilot in C-152 Annual: $500-$3000 for the first year or two... depends on how much is broken, and how much work you do yourself. Tiedown: $30-$75/mo ($360-$900)/yr. Depends on where you are. Hangars can be more Fuel: 6 gal/hr ... $8-20 gal/hr depending on 100LL or cargas, etc. Those add to between $2000-$5000/yr, depending on how you go, and how lucky you are on parts, etc. Divided by 100 hrs/yr (still quite a bit of flying), that's $20-$50/hr indirect costs. Add the $8-$20 for fuel, and on the low end it's cheaper than renting, and on the high end it's the same. At least around here you can rent a 152 for $65/hr. Obviously, for a 152, the indirect costs are disproportionately more expensive than the direct operating costs. Yet another reason for a bit more plane. Step up to a Cherokee 140, and the only thing that goes up is the initial price by $5-10k, and fuel from 6 gal/hr to 6-9 gal/hr (depending on how you're flying it). Hope that helps -Cory -- ************************************************** *********************** * The prime directive of Linux: * * - learn what you don't know, * * - teach what you do. * * (Just my 20 USm$) * ************************************************** *********************** |
#10
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wrote in message ... : Also, don't make the assumption that you save money by owning. As a rule of : thumb, you must fly about 200 hours a year to make owning more cost : effective than renting. That seems a bit high to me. Trouble with "rules of thumb" is that nothing in aviation makes any sense. Well, I would agree with you that rules of thumb are not always correct. Granted, the C152 is easier to operate cheaply than most airplanes. You make a good point: by helping with annuals, running mogas, and keeping it tied down instead of hangared, you can get the breakeven cost of ownership down. Self-insuring the hull would help too. But ... you're basing all your cost estimates on "best case". You don't consider the opportunity cost of money, and you don't run a rebuild fund. Also, don't discount the possibility of major maintenance problems or minor accidents. That's the thing about ownership. There is the hidden cost of "risk". If an expensive problem happens, there's nobody to absorb the cost but you. Don't get me wrong. Owning is great on many levels. But if saving $$ is your only criteria, think twice and look at the worst case as well as the best case. Run some spreadsheets and vary the estimates to see what it does to your hourly cost. That 200 hour rule of thumb was made up by guys with a lot more experience than me. If it flies, floats, or flirts, rent it. |
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