PC flight simulators

I think US Air Force Academy knows better

Utilizing the Internet-driven combat simulation known as Aces High, the =
U.S.
Air Force Academy cadets in the SMD, or Wargaming, club were offered the
opportunity to take command of air and naval forces in a virtual combat
environment. Aces High is a distributed, Internet simulator that allows
hundreds of people from around the world to fly, drive, and sail =
simulated
World War II combat vehicles in a real-time virtual environment. This =
scenario,
dubbed "Operation Hostile Shores," took place over the course of four, =
two-hour
sessions or "frames;" frames were approximately one week apart. The =
cadets
formed a Joint Forces Air Operations Center (JFAOC), with individual =
cadets
taking on the roles of Joint Forces Air Component Commander, J-2, J-3, as=
well
as air group commanders for fighter, fighter-bomber, and bomber groups.=20

more here..... http://www.wargamer.com/articles/hos...hores_main.asp



On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:03:02 GMT, (John) wrote:

Try it, 15 days free
http://www.hitechcreations.com/htcindex.html

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:58:21 GMT, (John) wrote:

Aces High is the best online sim. WWII.
Many real pilots fly there.
It was also a real Lancaster pilot (Dresden) i dont know if he is still=
there.
15 dollars a month, but it worth it, even the double.
Stop to talk, come to fly and die
check 6


On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:49:18 GMT, "Bj=F8rnar Bols=F8y" =

wrote:


I was wondering if anyone in this NG play simulators?
If so, which one? What's the best out there, currently.


Regards...

I think US Air Force Academy knows better

Utilizing the Internet-driven combat simulation known as Aces High, the =
U.S.
Air Force Academy cadets in the SMD, or Wargaming, club were offered the
opportunity to take command of air and naval forces in a virtual combat
environment. Aces High is a distributed, Internet simulator that allows
hundreds of people from around the world to fly, drive, and sail =
simulated
World War II combat vehicles in a real-time virtual environment. This =
scenario,
dubbed "Operation Hostile Shores," took place over the course of four, =
two-hour
sessions or "frames;" frames were approximately one week apart. The =
cadets
formed a Joint Forces Air Operations Center (JFAOC), with individual =
cadets
taking on the roles of Joint Forces Air Component Commander, J-2, J-3, as=
well
as air group commanders for fighter, fighter-bomber, and bomber groups.=20

more here..... http://www.wargamer.com/articles/hos...hores_main.asp



On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:03:02 GMT, (John) wrote:

Try it, 15 days free
http://www.hitechcreations.com/htcindex.html

On Tu

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 02:13:42 GMT, (John) wrote:

You are missing something.
Yes if you take the feeling of the fly, a pc cant give you this =
feeling.
But there are other things, especialy in online simulation.
Your enemy is real humans. They are clever, they learn day by day,
they do immelmans,hi yo-yos,low yo-yos,scissors,barrels, you need
SA to the limits when you are in the meadle of 15 enemy fighters,
you need to know ballistics to shoot angles (WWII sim) you learn
wingman tactics,squadron tactics,bombing ,dogfighting, with no real =
planes,
BUT very near to the real ones.(flying characteristics).
One thing is real at the online sims. The feaver of the battle with your=
human
enemies. Real pilots use real tactics there with near to real planes.
Especialy in WWII sim's you dont fight with buttons. You fight with REAL
Energy Management tactics, all props are underpowered,Real T&B tactics,
and in general you need to Know Real Combat Manuvers and flying theory
to survive.And ofcourse you need to know your plane and your enemy =
plane.
And more than everything you need to know how to shoot this devil =
infrond
of you at 400y who never stay steady.
We miss the real feeling of the flight witch a pc cant give you. Yet.


On 18 Nov 2003 17:02:33 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Anonymous" =20
Date: 11/18/03 7:07 AM Pacific Standard Time

But I still wouldn't class MSFS as a game simply because it isn't =
capable of
offering what a real aircraft or a purpose-built
multi-million =A3/$ aircraft simulator can.

MSFS can teach you things. But it is a game that can teach you things. =
Of all
the responses I got to my oirst post mostly insulting flames and =
personal
attacks most refused to accept the fact that it wasn't flying and =
resented it
being called a game. It is a damned computewr game. When you sit at =
your
computer you are not flying anything. You are playing a computer game. =
It had
educational benefits, biut it is still a game. If all you ever know =
about
entering a pattern you learn from MSFS, you are in deep troub;le. Very =
deep
trouble.If the only IFR you ever learn is from MSFS you are in deep =
trouble.
If youi have no air time but thousands of hours on MSFS, you still =
can't fly a
damn thing except FS. And that amounts to the fact that you have =
become good
at a game. Nothing more. It also shows that reality is slipping away =
from many
on this NG. Or maybe it was never there.But your post takes a more =
balanced
view without a flame in sight.Thank you for that..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

A sumulator simulates to the full extent of the flying experience It is
what
the airlines use to train and check pilot proficiencey. It is what the Air
Force uses for the same purpose. It must have full and complete
instrumentation
that works with total accuracy. It must have a fully functioning column
with
the " feel" the original plane through the controls. Comparing MSFS to an
airline or Air Force simulator is like comparing a plastic toy pistol to a
Uzi.

First, nobody was implying that the computer programs in question were to be
used for flight training.

Second, the term "simulator" covers a very broad base--not just the
extremely-high-fidelity equipment that can be used for flight checks and
training. The distinction lies in the fidelity of the simulation.

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Scet"
Date: 11/17/03 10:11 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Gord Beaman" )
Date: 11/16/03 5:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Bjørnar Bolsøy" am
Date: 11/16/03 3:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


I was wondering if anyone in this NG play simulators?
If so, which one? What's the best out there, currently.


Regards...

They are not really simulators. They are just computer games.
Arthur Kramer


Pretty inconsiderate Art...just because you don't play with them
why denigerate someone elses fun?

They do indeed simulate flight, so why do you make that stupid
statement?
--

-Gord.


I flew real simulators. And I have flown the crap they make for
computers.And
anything that you can do on a computer isn't even close. If you want to
fly
your computer for fun ok,bur remember it is just a toy. but don't
confuse
it
with real flying or flying a real simulator. I guess you have never
flown
Air
Force simulators. If you had you wouldn't be talking such patent
nonsense.
Now
be a good guy and just go away.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Well Art, I fly military simulators on just about a daily basis, the Link
P3C OFT and the Thales AP3C AFS and use on a regular basis PC simulators,
apart from the fact that they can replicate aircraft systems with over
400
faults and have motion, I for the life of me, am having trouble
understanding what the major difference is between a home simulator and a
military simulator in terms of simulating the flight characteristics of
an
aircraft.
I notice Art, that when I asked you if you had seen any of the current PC
flight simulators, you didn't comment, so I'm asking you again Art, have
you
seen any of the current PC sims in use?

Scet




Yeah. Flight Simulator. And it is just a computer game. I have only 1100
flying hours 250 of which are combat hours over Europe. Not a lot by any
standard. But comparing Flight Simulator with flying over the Ruhr Valley
compares only in someones wildest dreams, not in reality. But it goes
over big
with toy lovers.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

No Art, if you bothered to read my post correctly and got down off your high
and mighty perch, you would of noticed that I said "Link
P3C OFT and the Thales AP3C AFS" These are not "games" as you call them, but
allow Military aircrew to actually log flight time. They are fully
functional Military flight simulators, which I'm sure that if you were to
see the new generation simulators, you would stand open mouthed with awe.
Art, the Military just don't go letting aircrew acrue flying hours on a
"game".

Can't help but notice Art that you still didn't answer my question "Have you
seen any of the current PC sims in use?"
And also can't help but ask " Have you seen a new generation AFS that has
been made using technology that is less than 2 years old?" You have no idea
of the level of sophistication they have achieved, which includes
environmental conditions including weather and sea states. Remember Art,
these aren't made by Microsoft.

My humble opinion, coming from a background of hundreds of hours of playing
PC combat sims, is that Mr Art "in 1943 I flew a simulator" Kramer (mmm....a
clue to his cranky disposition perhaps?) is mostly right in a rude,
blustery, obnoxious sort of way.

However, when I was fortunate enough to be able to afford to charter a
Hawker Hunter out of Thunder City, Cape Town, South Africa, I was very at
home on the stick and was immediately capable of basic flight manouvres, it
took only seconds to get over the initial tendency to make 'too big'
movements. That's because I got a serious fright when I yanked on the stick,
the Hunter is as agile as a cat!. The pilot only took over for the seriously
rough aerobatics (and of course take off and landing). So, unrealistic as
they may be and although they will never make me a pilot, PC flight sims
teach you more than you may think or are willing to admit.

Whilst on the subject, I am having a debate on the subject of whether planes
like the BF109 and FW190 were really as unstable and prone to stalls and
spins at the drop of a hat as modelled in the PC sim IL2 Sturmovik,
Forgotten Battles. I am taking a Kramer view (but more politely because
they're my friends) and saying that the air war would never have been won if
planes of that era could barely fly. Does anyone know of real
stories/reports on this issue or maybe know someone of Art's vintage who
flew them? I have already read of a Mustang pilot who says the sim feels
about right if the 'stalls and spins' setting is turned off.


"Tex Houston" wrote in message
...

"Bjørnar Bolsøy" wrote in message
...

I was wondering if anyone in this NG play simulators?
If so, which one? What's the best out there, currently.


Regards...

I put "flight sim" in "Newsgroup Subscriptions" and got 13 hits. You will
probably get more play there.

Tex

Almost forgot, the debate extended into 'blackouts and redouts'. I blacked
out at around 5 G's in the Hunter and the pilot reckons he has bult up a
tolerance quite a bit hight than that (I'm glad, otherwise who would have
been watching where we were going?!)

In the sim, a hard pull on the stick and the screen goes black, very
annoying and I believe unrealistic. How many G's could those WWII planes
pull without tearing off the wings? Should 'blackouts and redouts' even be
modelled in a WWII sim? I know the sim, I'm hoping to get the reality
here.........

All things considered Art, maybe you should sit this one out.

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Scet"
Date: 11/18/03 10:28 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

been made using technology that is less than 2 years old?" You have no idea
of the level of sophistication they have achieved, which includes
environmental conditions including weather and sea states. Remember Art,
these aren't made by Microsoft

I think the general subject was about PC's, not AirForce real simulators.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: PC flight simulators
From:
Date: 11/19/03 4:48 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: bpfoq6$1q5c$1@newsreader02

I know the sim, I'm hoping to get the reality
here.........

Never the twain shall meet on a PC.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Then instead of being obtuse, answer my questions about the real planes. Oh
wait, none of your posts actually contain any facts do they? Maybe you don't
know.........

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: PC flight simulators
From:
Date: 11/19/03 4:48 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: bpfoq6$1q5c$1@newsreader02

I know the sim, I'm hoping to get the reality
here.........

Never the twain shall meet on a PC.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: Glenfiddich
Date: 11/19/03 5:12 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I've got MSFS, and also once was paid to play with military-class
full-motion simulators (including Harrier).

I'd like to offer a simple test for whether any device is a game or a
"real" flight simulator - can it give you white knuckles?


That said, even if PC sims are not "real", they should certainly
be counted as valid training aids.


A valid training aid yes. But a very limited one that is never a substitute for
actually flying. White knuckles? Never. But I think that many here have never
experienced white knuckles or anything close.White knuckles is what you get
10,000 feet over the Ruhr valley with a sky full of 88's. Not on a PC.

..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer