FAI Sailplane Grand Prix USA 🇺🇸 Orlando

Thanks for the clarification. Sound like something that needs to be included in greater detail in the pre contest briefings.



On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 8:31:49 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
The way both of these great pilots handled the penalty was some of the most sportsmanlike and gentlemanly behavior I have ever seen in sports. Both pilots addressed the others at the next morning's pilots meeting, explained their mistake in great detail using SeeYou to illustrate, and made several suggestions on improving the interface/task programming to make the semi-circle (no turns allowed area) more visible in the flight computer. CD John Godfrey did an excellent job handling as well, and the whole group (pilots and others) learned a great deal as a by-product of these penalties. The suggestions were partially simply improving our understanding of the SGP starting rules "intent," but also discussed methods for avoiding the risk of the penalty in general.

Bottom line, gliders must not turn when close to the starting line (time & distance) and a "perfect start" means very little to nothing in the grand scheme of the SGP competition format. The idea is to have a safe start. The race begins with strategy decisions out on course, well away from the starting line. All the pilots must find a way to beat their competitors without the luxury of choosing to start well behind/in-front of their competitors or by flying in vastly different areas to gain an advantage.

For those of you interested in the SGP rules, here they a http://sgpstorage.blob.core.windows....rules-v8.0.pdf

Jaun,

My pleasure.

Sean

On Wednesday, 5 April 2017 13:51:45 UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
Jaun,

My pleasure.

Sean

Appears to have been a well run contest and great weather.

Question: What do you believe is the maximum number of competitors for a SGP? IS the limit due to resources, i.e tow planes, airfield, contest format, or other?

Thanks in advance

Ron Gleason

First, there are many others with greater experience in SGP. I have now done 3.5 Grand Prix. Seminole Lake a few years ago (informal series), and then the FAI SGP events at Ionia, USA, Horsham, Australia and last week at Orlando, USA.

The FAI SGP format limits the pilots to 20. This seems wise. More than 20 would be crowded. I have very much enjoyed the 10-15 we have had in Ionia, Horsham and Orlando.

For other similar SGP racing formats (such as the "Nephi Games" this summer), I believe that the answer depends on the skill level of the pilots and the location of the event/flying conditions. Higher stronger, more. Lower, weaker, less. Other tweaks could be made such as increasing the length of the starting line, encouraging opportunities for separation at the start by providing options for the pilots in terms of choosing their first clouds or terrain feature to shoot for upon starting.

Huge numbers in one heat are not really the goal, quality, and fun is. If you had 60 gliders who wanted to fly SGP, I would prefer to do 5 waves of 12 sorted by pilot skill level and/or glider handicap, etc and then separate each start by 10 minutes.

I am also thinking of a new format. Match racing. 2 gliders, SGP format (starting line, countdown start, assigned racing task, finish line).

Sean

Ron, I fully agree that there needs to be good value for the organizers/clubs/Comm operations to hold soaring contests or events. No question.

That said, SGP USA 🇺🇸 worked very well financially for 12 pilots last week in Florida. I suppose it depends how lavish the pilots want to be with meals, events, event gear, etc. We went fairly lavish and still did very well, with the same entry fee as the Seniors.

We (the whole team) provided a great event at Seminole with 4 catered dinners (3 on-site, one at Red Wing), great daily medals, participation medals and overall awards), drinks and snacks each night, light breakfast food and coffee every morning and we even included very cool FAI SGP event gear for all the pilots and volunteers (SoaringXX).

Personally, I would much rather compete in more of these simple, clean and efficient events of 12 similar gliders (with pilots of similar skill level) than deal with 65 gliders and multiple start lines, tasks and classes. What a pain! Our event last week did not have to battle with 65 gliders each day on the grid. Our launch time was around 20 minutes for 12 watered gliders (without straining). Our landings were not overcrowded or stressful. Our parties and dinners were relaxed and cozy (30-40 people included crews, SOS, volunteers and friends). In addition, and very unlike the Seniors event (for example), Seminole Lake Gliderport was fully able to run its commercial and training operations all SGP USA week with minimal interference from our event (short shut downs for our launch and finish only). The need to stop commercial and training operations for the seniors contest (a week plus) is very costly to their operations. From a management perspective, that lose in revenue subtracts significantly from any profit the event supposedly realizes.

So, I think there is also something to be said for a future with more small, "very high quality" soaring competitions in addition to the "SSAs traditionally coveted" very large events which are very complicated and disruptive to manage (to say the least).

Sean

On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 8:38:43 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
Ron, I fully agree that there needs to be good value for the organizers/clubs/Comm operations to hold soaring contests or events. No question.

That said, SGP USA 🇺🇸 worked very well financially for 12 pilots last week in Florida. I suppose it depends how lavish the pilots want to be with meals, events, event gear, etc. We went fairly lavish and still did very well, with the same entry fee as the Seniors.

We (the whole team) provided a great event at Seminole with 4 catered dinners (3 on-site, one at Red Wing), great daily medals, participation medals and overall awards), drinks and snacks each night, light breakfast food and coffee every morning and we even included very cool FAI SGP event gear for all the pilots and volunteers (SoaringXX).

Personally, I would much rather compete in more of these simple, clean and efficient events of 12 similar gliders (with pilots of similar skill level) than deal with 65 gliders and multiple start lines, tasks and classes. What a pain! Our event last week did not have to battle with 65 gliders each day on the grid. Our launch time was around 20 minutes for 12 watered gliders (without straining). Our landings were not overcrowded or stressful.. Our parties and dinners were relaxed and cozy (30-40 people included crews, SOS, volunteers and friends). In addition, and very unlike the Seniors event (for example), Seminole Lake Gliderport was fully able to run its commercial and training operations all SGP USA week with minimal interference from our event (short shut downs for our launch and finish only). The need to stop commercial and training operations for the seniors contest (a week plus) is very costly to their operations. From a management perspective, that lose in revenue subtracts significantly from any profit the event supposedly realizes.

So, I think there is also something to be said for a future with more small, "very high quality" soaring competitions in addition to the "SSAs traditionally coveted" very large events which are very complicated and disruptive to manage (to say the least).

Sean

Sean, I very much appreciate you organizing another SGP event and successfully and safely doing so. I followed all flights with much interest. However, I wonder why you have to take cheap shots at other organizers who without doubt invest just as much sweat and tears into their "complicated and disruptive(?) contests" with - oh the horror - up to 65 participants. Putting others down to toot your own horn is childish and does not help your cause. It seems you can only 'win' when others lose. I'm tempted to make a comparison to a well known politician here but will refrain. Please tune down your constant self-promotion, it's getting stale.
Thanks,
Herb

Small point of order... SLGP did not completely shut down their daily operations during Seniors. They appeared very active in the mornings before grid time and again after the contest finish. In fact, during the first pilot meeting, I timed their Blanik doing rope breaks/returns and relauches in less than five minutes for each cycle. Their regular business was curtailed, of course, but not shut down by the Seniors.

PA

Paul,

Even if they were able to "squeak in" a few flights each AM (before the grid march begins and the single runway becomes unsafe) and also squeak in a few more flights in the evening after the last few seniors land and get off the runway, the fact remains that the annual seniors event results in a significant disruption to their core business and schedule and therefore results in a significant loss of normal operational revenue (which therefore must be subtracted from any 'net profit' realized by the seniors event to accurately represent the financial benifit of the seniors event to the commercial operation). They have to clear their schedule in order to not irritate customers, etc. This was stated openly and in no uncertain terms. It's no secret.

My point is that very large soaring contests are not always as efficient as we would like to believe, especially when they impact normal commercial operations (or nearly shut them down entirely). In the case of the seniors event, it's not just the contest dates that are disruptive. Normal operations are impacted for many weeks before and perhaps a week after the contest itself. Tows are not as profitable as instruction and commercial rides, especially when they disrupt the normal schedule and likely reduce them for a long period of time.

Again, small efficient soaring contests (such as the FAI SGP USA 🇺🇸 Orlando) seem to have very minor normal operation impacts (if any) are highly efficient. They allow for reasonably increased revenue for the operation without subverting their normal operations and disrupting their schedule (stress). This was very refreshing for them. This was their feedback, not mine.

Sean

Am I to understand that the glider port remains closed for the duration
of the contest flights (until all gliders return)? Why wouldn't they
reopen for business once the gliders are all launched?


On 4/7/2017 7:49 AM, Sean Fidler wrote:
Paul,

Even if they were able to "squeak in" a few flights each AM (before the grid march begins and the single runway becomes unsafe) and also squeak in a few more flights in the evening after the last few seniors land and get off the runway, the fact remains that the annual seniors event results in a significant disruption to their core business and schedule and therefore results in a significant loss of normal operational revenue (which therefore must be subtracted from any 'net profit' realized by the seniors event to accurately represent the financial benifit of the seniors event to the commercial operation). They have to clear their schedule in order to not irritate customers, etc. This was stated openly and in no uncertain terms. It's no secret.

My point is that very large soaring contests are not always as efficient as we would like to believe, especially when they impact normal commercial operations (or nearly shut them down entirely). In the case of the seniors event, it's not just the contest dates that are disruptive. Normal operations are impacted for many weeks before and perhaps a week after the contest itself. Tows are not as profitable as instruction and commercial rides, especially when they disrupt the normal schedule and likely reduce them for a long period of time.

Again, small efficient soaring contests (such as the FAI SGP USA 🇺🇸 Orlando) seem to have very minor normal operation impacts (if any) are highly efficient. They allow for reasonably increased revenue for the operation without subverting their normal operations and disrupting their schedule (stress). This was very refreshing for them. This was their feedback, not mine.

Sean

--
Dan, 5J

On Friday, April 7, 2017 at 6:48:16 PM UTC+3, Dan Marotta wrote:
Am I to understand that the glider port remains closed for the duration
of the contest flights (until all gliders return)? Why wouldn't they
reopen for business once the gliders are all launched?


On 4/7/2017 7:49 AM, Sean Fidler wrote:
Paul,

Even if they were able to "squeak in" a few flights each AM (before the grid march begins and the single runway becomes unsafe) and also squeak in a few more flights in the evening after the last few seniors land and get off the runway, the fact remains that the annual seniors event results in a significant disruption to their core business and schedule and therefore results in a significant loss of normal operational revenue (which therefore must be subtracted from any 'net profit' realized by the seniors event to accurately represent the financial benifit of the seniors event to the commercial operation). They have to clear their schedule in order to not irritate customers, etc. This was stated openly and in no uncertain terms. It's no secret.

My point is that very large soaring contests are not always as efficient as we would like to believe, especially when they impact normal commercial operations (or nearly shut them down entirely). In the case of the seniors event, it's not just the contest dates that are disruptive. Normal operations are impacted for many weeks before and perhaps a week after the contest itself. Tows are not as profitable as instruction and commercial rides, especially when they disrupt the normal schedule and likely reduce them for a long period of time.

Again, small efficient soaring contests (such as the FAI SGP USA 🇺🇸 Orlando) seem to have very minor normal operation impacts (if any) are highly efficient. They allow for reasonably increased revenue for the operation without subverting their normal operations and disrupting their schedule (stress). This was very refreshing for them. This was their feedback, not mine.

Yeah, that seems weird. I've never seen that happen in New Zealand. The contest had priority for launching, of course, but as soon as they're gone it's business as usual. Even when we had the worlds here, I'd often watch the launch, and then once the contest gliders had gone, I'd go up in a libelle and have a nice day. I can't remember whether lanches were happening while contest gliders were finishing, but non-contest gliders were certainly in the local area or returning to the field and landing at the same time. Not early solo students, certainly :-)