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Some bad controllers



 
 
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  #41  
Old March 8th 04, 07:46 PM
Jeff
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but its high clouds for the most part, you dont get the clouds covering the mountains like you had
this last week or so.

Doug Rinks wrote:

Not exactly.. Phoenix gets monsoons nearly every night during the
summer. That surely counts as IMC.

Doug

Jeff wrote in message ...
ya he was so busy he almost let someone fly into me.

no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does not get much IMC, its
sunny about 350 days a year there.


  #42  
Old March 8th 04, 07:50 PM
Mike Rapoport
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Did you write the following?

"I chose VFR the first part of the flight so I could have the latitude to
dodge clouds to prevent icing."

"so here I am now down from my safe altitude above the clouds"

"then here I am in these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2"

"then he does not want me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft
and to be prepared for the visual. man what a crappy flight"

Mike
MU-2



"Jeff" wrote in message
...
when did I complain about flying in the clouds?


who complained about not getting the ILS in VMC


who said I was not comfortable with flying in the clouds?

I think you misread some things.


Mike Rapoport wrote:

Maybe prepared is not the right word but you make a point of saying that
you:flew most of the trip VFR to aviod ice and yet you filed IFR into

class
B airspace and complained about flying in clouds. You accepted the

descent
to 7000 (amongst the clouds) while VFR. So basically you seem to be
complaining about not getting your clearance right away, having to fly

IFR
in clouds and not getting the ILS in VMC. You also complain that he

made
you descend for traffic, separating traffic is the controllers primary

job.

If you are not comfortable flying in icing clouds then don't file IFR in
class B airspace when the temp is below freezing. Most of your issues

where
of your own making and you should accept responsibilty for them instead

of
blaming someone else. It is odd that the controller said that he was

busy
on a quiet freq.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
and how was I not prepared ?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no

business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix

area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would

request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and

few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and

10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the

flight
so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at

12,000
ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared

into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence.

I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to

turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to

busy.
no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down

from
my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag

between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar

and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley

under
some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is

covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he

got
me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be

in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy

****ed
me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told

him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was

"saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am

in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend

to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to

5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not

want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be

prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell

you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing

power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.







  #43  
Old March 8th 04, 07:56 PM
Jeff
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I had no problems when he gave me my clearance, was it nasty, yes it was, but it
was not uncomfortable nor did I ever feel like I was in danger, the problems I had
that were weather related only lasted long enough for me to take corrective
action.

We dont see much weather like that and when we do not many people fly in it
because of the chance of icing. Did I have a good plan yes I did, did I have
options, yes I did, could I have gotten out and went to one of my 2 alternates,
yes I could have. Did I want to ..no, my car reservation was at the airport I
intended to land at and all I needed was my clearance so I could go through the
clouds and get to my destination.
Could the controller have been a little bit better, knowing the weather was what
it was and since I had a flight plan on file and gave me the clearance..yes he
could have.

Martin Kosina wrote:

and how was I not prepared ?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2


I think Mike meant you should never be cutting it so close that some
sort of an ATC screwup makes it uncomfortable, or even dangerous. I am
not saying that's what you did (flying a single in the Pacific NW, I
know the on-top/slamdunk game well), but he does have a valid point,
even if it sounds smug from the flightdeck of a deiced turboprop ;-)

I would only add that in my (admitedly limited) experience, it helps
to be forthright with ATC about why you want something, if milling
around in icy tops is a concern, let them know.

Martin


  #44  
Old March 8th 04, 08:02 PM
Jeff
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I was not dependent on them granting my every wish nor was I dependent on
anything except being able to land.
I guess my problem was decending in the first place when he said he was
looking for my clearance and told to do so assuming he would pull it up.

He damn sure pulled it up quick when I made my last call to him, he didnt even
need to ask my tail number again or any other information, so it appears to me
had had access to it the entire time and just did not want to mess with it.


Mike Rapoport wrote:

To expand on Martin's correct interpretation of what I meant (but perhaps
didn't express well), you shouldn't be dependent on ATC being able to
accommodate your every wish, particularly in class B airspace. If you
really can't fly in clouds because of icing, then remain VFR. It isn't a
"screwup" on ATC's part that they can't let a pilot fly any heading and
altitude that he wishes, it is the pilots"screwup" that he is dependent on
them doing so.

Mike
MU-2

"Martin Kosina" wrote in message
om...
and how was I not prepared ?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no

business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2



I think Mike meant you should never be cutting it so close that some
sort of an ATC screwup makes it uncomfortable, or even dangerous. I am
not saying that's what you did (flying a single in the Pacific NW, I
know the on-top/slamdunk game well), but he does have a valid point,
even if it sounds smug from the flightdeck of a deiced turboprop ;-)

I would only add that in my (admitedly limited) experience, it helps
to be forthright with ATC about why you want something, if milling
around in icy tops is a concern, let them know.

Martin


  #45  
Old March 8th 04, 08:04 PM
Jeff
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and how do you know it was busy ?
were you sitting next to the controller - or is this just another assumption
on your part?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for IFR to
descend to your destination in busy class B airspace!

Mike
MU-2

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...
Mike Rapoport wrote:
If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no

business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.


Depends on your definition of nasty. I consider t-storm, funnel clouds,
and clouds with temps below freezing to be nasty and I won't fly into
them, at least not intentionally. I hardly think that means I have no
business flying IFR.

Not sure what the OPs definition of nasty is, but that is mine.


Matt


  #47  
Old March 8th 04, 08:23 PM
Mike Rapoport
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Yeah, I was sitting right next to him when you called. Visiting the ATC
center ya know? Saw the whole thing. He wanted to finish the game of
solitaire that he was playing on the radar scope and didn't want to be
bothered issuing a clearance, so he made up the whole part about being busy.
There really were't any airliners departing PHX that night, no military or
other GA traffic either.


Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
and how do you know it was busy ?
were you sitting next to the controller - or is this just another

assumption
on your part?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for IFR

to
descend to your destination in busy class B airspace!

Mike
MU-2

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...
Mike Rapoport wrote:
If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no

business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Depends on your definition of nasty. I consider t-storm, funnel

clouds,
and clouds with temps below freezing to be nasty and I won't fly into
them, at least not intentionally. I hardly think that means I have no
business flying IFR.

Not sure what the OPs definition of nasty is, but that is mine.


Matt




  #49  
Old March 8th 04, 09:36 PM
Snowbird
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message link.net...
"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...
Jeff, with regard to "no one was talking except me". Be aware
that a controller can be handling 2 or even 3 frequencies, and
also depending upon how his airspace is set up he may need to be
doing a lot of coordination by phone.


So he might not be talking to anyone else on your freq, but he
still could be busier than a 1 armed paper hanger.


If he's got aircraft on other frequencies you'll hear his transmissions to
those other aircraft on your frequency, you just won't hear the other
aircraft.


Is that always true? I know I hear this pattern sometimes, but I thought
it wasn't necessarily true.

In any event, if he's spending time on the 'phone coordinating, we
won't hear that.

Cheers,
Sydney
  #50  
Old March 8th 04, 09:43 PM
Ditch
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Is that always true? I know I hear this pattern sometimes, but I thought
it wasn't necessarily true.


Not i my experience. I have actually heard the controller's transmission stop
midway thru as he was talking to an airplane on another freq....switched to the
freq he was talking to the other airplane on and hear him finish his
transmission.
Most of the time they will broadcast on all the freqs they are working, but not
always.


-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*
 




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