EA-18G vs ES-3

R. David Steele wrote:
I have been out of the loop for a while. Hope that you folks
might bring me up to speed. What happened to the ES-3? At the
time it looked like it could do the SIGINT/ELINT mission as it
had room for the gear plus a crew of four. Made it a good
replacement for the EA-6.

The ES-3 was never a replacement for the EA-6. It did ELINT collection
while the EA-6 did jamming and SEAD. The ES-3 disappeared in 1999 thanks to
funding shortages.

What it that the ES-3, like the EA-6, can not keep with the
F/A-18 and the F-35? Or is this just a bone to Boeing?

The S-3 is even slower than the EA-6. That's why they weren't able to use
the S-3 as a mission tanker for strike fighters like the F/A-18.

I assume that the EA-18G will only have a crew of two. But then
isn't the F/A-18 now being used for refueling along with the S-3?

Soon to be "instead of" the S-3. When more air wings deploy with two Super
Hornet squadrons, the plan is for them not to have any S-3s. Single-seat
Super Hornets do tanker duties.


--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

You really are out of the loop R.David.

The ES-3 did the same job as the EP-3, although much watered
down. Just like the ASW S-3 did the same job as the P-3, and even more
watered down. However, the "Shadow" did have one advantage over the
ARIES II; the APS-137 ISAR for targeting capabilities. But it had
very limited actual "spook" value.

1.) The Prowler was never a a SIGINT/ELINT platform and never
will be, nor will the "Growler".

2.) The S-3 has been used for 6 years now, and still is the
primary tanker, what are you guys talking about?

3.) Yes, the plan is to start to bring on-line the E/F for
tanker duties, ( I know it's already being done, but S-3's are still
the primary tanker until "sundown" in 2005).

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:50:21 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
wrote:

R. David Steele wrote:
I have been out of the loop for a while. Hope that you folks
might bring me up to speed. What happened to the ES-3? At the
time it looked like it could do the SIGINT/ELINT mission as it
had room for the gear plus a crew of four. Made it a good
replacement for the EA-6.

The ES-3 was never a replacement for the EA-6. It did ELINT collection
while the EA-6 did jamming and SEAD. The ES-3 disappeared in 1999 thanks to
funding shortages.

What it that the ES-3, like the EA-6, can not keep with the
F/A-18 and the F-35? Or is this just a bone to Boeing?

The S-3 is even slower than the EA-6. That's why they weren't able to use
the S-3 as a mission tanker for strike fighters like the F/A-18.

I assume that the EA-18G will only have a crew of two. But then
isn't the F/A-18 now being used for refueling along with the S-3?

Soon to be "instead of" the S-3. When more air wings deploy with two Super
Hornet squadrons, the plan is for them not to have any S-3s. Single-seat
Super Hornets do tanker duties.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:50:21 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
wrote:

R. David Steele wrote:
snipped...
The S-3 is even slower than the EA-6. That's why they weren't able to use
the S-3 as a mission tanker for strike fighters like the F/A-18.
Where did you get that from? S-3's have been tanking Lawn Darts since
the RAG stood up at Cecil Field in the early 90's. S-3 has a dash
speed of 450 kts. It can easily do 400 kts straight and level. That
is way above tanking speed.

Please note - I'm a former AW - not a driver, but I think I have my
basic facts correct.
Regards,

snipped...

"fudog50" wrote...
You really are out of the loop R.David.

1.) The Prowler was never a a SIGINT/ELINT platform and never
will be, nor will the "Growler".

Maybe you are the one out of the loop... The Prowler has significant
SIGINT/ELINT capabilities, even though it is not a "dedicated" SIGINT platform.
When I was flying Standard ARM equipped A-6s in the early 80s, we worked closely
with the Prowlers to develop tactical capabilities in those regimes. Even the
AWG-21 system in the A-6 had some SIGINT/ELINT capability (better with the
missile seeker)...


2.) The S-3 has been used for 6 years now, and still is the
primary tanker, what are you guys talking about?

The S-3 is a good overhead tanker, and a workable mission tanker, but cannot be
used in an escort tanker role because of its speed limitations. That limitation
means more rendezvous will have to take place for on-station tanking, because
the tanker cannot go with the strike group.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:58:13 GMT, "John R Weiss"
wrote:

Hey John R.,
A valiant effort at trying to discredit what I posted, nice
try.
We can exploit different systems and use them in ways they
were not intended. Part of a skippers fitreps are gauged at how he
develops new and unique tactics, I'm sure you know that already. I
think you are wrong about your insinuation I am not correct in what I
posted. I beleive you need to get in the loop and find out what the
acronyms SIGINT and ELINT really mean, and how the spook community
uses them.
Good on ya for your development of AWG-21/Standard ARM
tactics, pretty cool, but whatever you want to call them, it ain't
SIGINT/ELINT. I only know about the Prowler from my experience as
MMCO, and 3 cruises with Prowlers, we never did any of what the
intelligence community calls SIGINT/ELINT. The ALQ-99 Receivers do a
great job at picking up, analyzing and targeting what has already been
programmed in, but it still ain't SIGINT/ELINT.
I also have been in a Viking squadron (3 cruises) , P-3's (6
deployments) and currently EP-3's. I also did some work with VQ-5's
det (ES-3's) in Misawa in 95.
I didn't think I was out of the loop, but by your definitions,
to you I am, so thanks for enlightning me on those whatever you want
to call them tactics you guys developed 20 years ago. That loop has
been closed for 15 years.
Also what you are saying is I am wrong and that the Growler
will be used for SIGINT/ELINT??? Show us please?

"fudog50" wrote...
You really are out of the loop R.David.

1.) The Prowler was never a a SIGINT/ELINT platform and never
will be, nor will the "Growler".

Maybe you are the one out of the loop... The Prowler has significant
SIGINT/ELINT capabilities, even though it is not a "dedicated" SIGINT platform.
When I was flying Standard ARM equipped A-6s in the early 80s, we worked closely
with the Prowlers to develop tactical capabilities in those regimes. Even the
AWG-21 system in the A-6 had some SIGINT/ELINT capability (better with the
missile seeker)...


2.) The S-3 has been used for 6 years now, and still is the
primary tanker, what are you guys talking about?

The S-3 is a good overhead tanker, and a workable mission tanker, but cannot be
used in an escort tanker role because of its speed limitations. That limitation
means more rendezvous will have to take place for on-station tanking, because
the tanker cannot go with the strike group.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:37:14 GMT, fudog50 wrote:

The ALQ-99 Receivers do a
great job at picking up, analyzing and targeting what has already been
programmed in, but it still ain't SIGINT/ELINT.

I agree that *detecting* and/or locating known radar types is not
SIGINT, but it surely is OPELINT (versus the analysis of singal that
makes up TECHELEINT). Or so I was taught many moons ago.

It's the difference between - "oh, there's an SA-6 radar over there"
(OPELINT) and "What the hell's this signal? Better record the pulse
shape, prf and so on for analysis" (TECHELEINT).

---
Peter Kemp

Life is short - drink faster

In article ,
Peter Kemp wrote:

It's the difference between - "oh, there's an SA-6 radar over there"
(OPELINT) and "What the hell's this signal? Better record the pulse
shape, prf and so on for analysis" (TECHELEINT).

Not to mention the much more common Direct Radiation Yoke Emission
Recording/Locating Intel, or DRYERLINT.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

Charlie Wolf wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:50:21 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
wrote:

R. David Steele wrote:
snipped...
The S-3 is even slower than the EA-6. That's why they weren't able
to use the S-3 as a mission tanker for strike fighters like the
F/A-18.
Where did you get that from? S-3's have been tanking Lawn Darts since
the RAG stood up at Cecil Field in the early 90's. S-3 has a dash
speed of 450 kts. It can easily do 400 kts straight and level. That
is way above tanking speed.

Right. That's why I said *mission* tanker. AIUI, the S-3 was fine for
tanking around the carrier, but did not have the speed to keep pace with a
strike package en-route to the target area.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 03:37:08 GMT, R. David Steele
wrote:

I have been out of the loop for a while. Hope that you folks
might bring me up to speed. What happened to the ES-3?

It was retired 9 years ago.

At the
time it looked like it could do the SIGINT/ELINT mission as it
had room for the gear plus a crew of four. Made it a good
replacement for the EA-6.

Not at all. EA-6B is not a SIGINT/ELINT platform, it is a combat
jammer. *Completely* different missions.

--
Andrew Toppan --- --- "I speak only for myself"
"Haze Gray & Underway" - Naval History, DANFS, World Navies Today,
Photo Features, Military FAQs, and more - http://www.hazegray.org/

Thomas Schoene wrote:
Charlie Wolf wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:50:21 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
wrote:

R. David Steele wrote:
snipped...
The S-3 is even slower than the EA-6. That's why they weren't able
to use the S-3 as a mission tanker for strike fighters like the
F/A-18.
Where did you get that from? S-3's have been tanking Lawn Darts
since the RAG stood up at Cecil Field in the early 90's. S-3 has a
dash speed of 450 kts. It can easily do 400 kts straight and level.
That is way above tanking speed.

Right. That's why I said *mission* tanker.



And reading the rest of the thread, I think I was probably confusing my
terms. I think "escort tanker" is what I should have been saying here.


--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)