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#11
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I thought finish "gates" moved to a line or cylinder at altitude away from
the airport.. like the start gates did with the advent of GPS recordings BT wrote in message oups.com... We successfully fly our sailplanes by keeping our options open, don't we? We keep an extra 300 feet in the pattern, just in case we hit a bunch of sink, don't we? On the ridge we keep our speed up and always have an escape route, don't we? Why then, do we continue to use a finish gate that reduces our options to just one? When we finish at 50 feet we must immediately exchange our speed for altitude and hope there isn't somebody above us as we make a beautiful climbing turn to down-wind. What if we suddenly see someone else in the pattern? What if we see 3 other ships in the pattern? Been there, done that! I abandoned any thought of putting it on the runway and lined up on the taxiway, just to see one of the other ships make the same decision and cut inside me. We rolled to a stop, not 15 feet apart. Over the years I have paid my competitive dues by volunteering to run contests. I have been the Competition Director in 3 Nationals and a Regionals in the last 30 years. I will not subject myself, the pilots or the organization to the liability involved in using a finish gate that I consider outmoded, unnecessary and unsafe. We have an option, don't we? JJ Sinclair |
#12
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BTIZ wrote:
I thought finish "gates" moved to a line or cylinder at altitude away from the airport.. like the start gates did with the advent of GPS recordings The current SSA regional/national rules leave the contest director with the option of using either a finish cylinder with a specified minimum finish height (usually 500 to 1000 ft), or a finish gate with a 50 ft minimum height. When using a finish gate, it needs to be adjacent to the runway, or the worm burners won't be able to make it home... Marc |
#13
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I was just doing some polar math.
Let's say I'm on a Mc = 0 final glide in my ASW-27B. I cross the finish cylinder boundary at 500' and 60 knots (best L/D dry). I'm now 1 sm from the airport center. I fly at best L/D and reach the airfield with about 380' of altitude. This is about the same altitude I'd have if I'd crossed a finish gate at 100 knots and 50 feet then pulled up. If on the other hand I cross the cylinder at 150 knots and 500' I will reach the airfield at 50', still at 150 knots. After my pullup I will have something more than 900'. I know which scenario I prefer. It's all about total energy. If you think total energy is more about 500' of altitude than an extra 90 knots of airspeed I suggest you do the math. My suggestion is to keep these issues the domain of the CD and contest organizers. They understand best the local airport and traffic patterns and the nature of the local conditions. Low total energy finishes should be (and are) subject to penalty at the CD's discretion. It's easy enough to judge off of GPS logs now. 9B At 00:00 12 March 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote: wrote: First, when do you pull in a cylinder finish? How about when it's clear? There's no hurry, unlike being 50 feet off the ground. When the gps goes beep? How do I know mine will go beep in sequence with yours? What if I delay my pull? I'm guessing you'd continue in the direction you are headed. Since you are 500' in the air, this shouldn't cause any heartburn. What risk am I taking? What are the speed differentials among the gliders in the gaggle? With a finish line, high and low energy aircraft separate naturally. You'll have to explain how this happens. I've seen high and low speed gliders close together at finish lines, and if the high speed glider is lower than the others, watch out! He's eager to climb up to pattern height and isn't going to coast along for another 1000' or so. Will the pilot above and behind me pushing to redline notice I'm in front flying at best L/D in an attempt to avoid missing the bottom of the cyliner? He's safe - he'll separate from you when he pulls up, and you aren't going to pull up. That's a good situation. It seems unlikely he won't see you ahead of him as he approaches. I've seen the same situation finish gates, anyway. And where is the cylinder? Why, it's right there on my instrument panel! Next to the altimeter, my other sore distraction. I think if you can keep track of the other gliders zooming into a finish line from various altitudes and angles, you'd be able to manage a finish cylinder. At least, as you approach the cylinder, the gliders that will enter the cylinder near you are all going the same direction you are, which is often not true at a finish line. When was the last time we wanted to ban gaggles for safety reasons? I think most of us have wanted to elimanate *large* gaggles, but no one has figured out a good way to do it. My theory is that ignorance shows more profoundly low and fast than high and slow. If by ignorance, you mean 'poor judgement', I agree with you, and I think this is the theory behind the finish cylinders, isn't it? -- Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#14
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Andy Blackburn wrote:
Let's say I'm on a Mc = 0 final glide in my ASW-27B. I cross the finish cylinder boundary at 500' and 60 knots (best L/D dry). I'm now 1 sm from the airport center. I fly at best L/D and reach the airfield with about 380' of altitude. This is about the same altitude I'd have if I'd crossed a finish gate at 100 knots and 50 feet then pulled up. If on the other hand I cross the cylinder at 150 knots and 500' I will reach the airfield at 50', still at 150 knots. After my pullup I will have something more than 900'. I know which scenario I prefer. What, exactly, is your point? This makes no sense... Marc |
#15
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Don't argue with 9B re the logic of the math issue....trust me....he's a
very bright guy and never leaves his calculator! He is offering the mathematical explanation of why cylinder finishes may not be any safer. Of course it supports my point so I'm thinkin' he's a rad dude! It's been a good discussion guys.....hope that all of you have a super weekend of soaring whatever height you choose to finish! Casey Lenox KC Phoenix |
#16
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Kilo Charlie wrote:
Don't argue with 9B re the logic of the math issue....trust me....he's a very bright guy and never leaves his calculator! He is offering the mathematical explanation of why cylinder finishes may not be any safer. Of course it supports my point so I'm thinkin' he's a rad dude! Hmm, I pegged him for a lawyer or politician, the numbers may have some basis in reality (assuming you fly in a vacuum), but the logic is, uh, "interesting". It's been a good discussion guys.....hope that all of you have a super weekend of soaring whatever height you choose to finish! Agreed... Marc |
#17
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Kilo Charlie wrote:
Don't argue with 9B re the logic of the math issue....trust me....he's a very bright guy and never leaves his calculator! He is offering the mathematical explanation of why cylinder finishes may not be any safer. Of course it supports my point so I'm thinkin' he's a rad dude! Hmm, I pegged him for a lawyer or politician, the numbers may have some basis in reality (assuming you fly in a vacuum), but the logic is, uh, "interesting". It's been a good discussion guys.....hope that all of you have a super weekend of soaring whatever height you choose to finish! Agreed... Marc |
#18
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well... as most finishes would be at worm burner speeds even for the
cylinder, not bet L/D speed... at least you would start the "zoom" from 100knts and 500ft higher? even if 1/2 mile from the runway instead of 10 ft over it. flying the cylinder at best L/d would be conservative if you were going to barely make it home.. I would think BT "Kilo Charlie" wrote in message news:m6uYd.43315$FM3.18415@fed1read02... Don't argue with 9B re the logic of the math issue....trust me....he's a very bright guy and never leaves his calculator! He is offering the mathematical explanation of why cylinder finishes may not be any safer. Of course it supports my point so I'm thinkin' he's a rad dude! It's been a good discussion guys.....hope that all of you have a super weekend of soaring whatever height you choose to finish! Casey Lenox KC Phoenix |
#19
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I never said it was for everyone....But those who wish to do it shouldnt be
stopped by those who dont. Nick. "Stewart Kissel" wrote in message ... I think it should be treated as any other aerobatic manouver. Ahhh, hmmm....let's see if I understand this concept... Unsynchronized group aerobatics done at low level and high speed...in the landing pattern of an open airport....by fatigued pilots. Thanks but no thanks. |
#20
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You are missing the point... it is fun!!
From what statistics does your 'relatively few pilots' line come from? Are we talking about contest pilots? Regular weekend flyers? I would say that 80% of the contest pilots I know love to do it. This is not to say that they deliberatly climb higher than necessary to facilitate it, but there are occasions when you get 10kt climbs when you already have final glide. In this case it is worthwhile to pull up so you can come back at a faster speed. Nick. "Marc Ramsey" wrote in message . com... Kilo Charlie wrote: Tom Knauff has done a good job of disproving the idea that the most dangerous part of flying is the drive to the field. I hope that this doesn't insult you guys trying to argue the what you feel is the safety point. Your hearts are in the right place. == There are relatively few pilots who believe others are impressed by a low altitude pass. (Sort of like teenage burning rubber, thinking it impresses others.) In fact, the pilot usually needs to gain extra altitude in the final thermal in order to have the necessary energy, wasting precious time. The better pilot only climbs to the altitude necessary and then flies the correct speed-to-fly all the way home, perhaps increasing the airspeed slightly to use up the safety margin altitude, in the final miles. Really good pilots don't need to show off. They demonstrate their skills on the score sheet. == The above is a quote from Tom Knauff's last email newsletter, hopefully he won't mind my posting it here. I just like to race and get home in one piece. I want to minimize the chances of screwing up, or being subject to someone elses screw up, after I finish. Maybe you'll understand, someday... regards, Marc |
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