Power Commercial to Glider Commercial

Nyal,
I was a commercial power pilot(actually ATP) when I went for a
glider rating several years ago. I asked if I should go for a private
or commercial. I was told in no uncertain terms that I should go for a
commercial. Why? Only 10 more solo flights with slightly more rigid
standards. The savings? Extra checkride.
It makes NO sense for a commercial anything to add just a private.
For gliders, the 10 extra solo flights is a no-brainer.

Dean Chantiles

Mitty,

Assuming you have NO glider time as of the date of post,
there are two ways to get PIC time that I know of:

Solo
If you are rated or have privileges

Solo is pretty well defined. The second way is
if you already have a lesser glider rating. One of these
is the Private. As other posters pointed out, there is
almost no reason to get a private instead of a commercial
glider rating if you already have a comm'l ASEL.

Another way to log PIC time is to get a Sport Pilot privilege
in gliders. If you do this, you can then log your instructional
flights as PIC, and you can take passengers as PIC.

If you have access to an LSA glider (such as a 2-33 or
SZD 50-3) then this is an option for you. Also, the process of
flying with two CFIGs before the comm'l glider ride is
quite helpful.

We've done this for a pilot locally who has a Private ASEL
rating. He has enough power hours to get a commercial,
and had just barely soloed. So we did his Sport Pilot glider
privilege add-on and now he can log his further
instructional flights towards the commercial glider rating
which he is pursuing.

In the end, it likely won't matter, and he will have 20 soloes
anyway. The difference is that he will be ready for the ride,
have the experiance complete, and have the form signed earlier,
and during the 2-6 week wait for the checkride he will fly
the other solo flights at his leisure for practice.

Most DPEs won't even schedule a checkride until everything is
signed and ready. So having this a little earlier doesn't
hurt anything.

*****screwy obscure stuff follows************

And there is one other obscure way to log PIC time. You can get
an ATP rating for an experimental glider. If you already have
an ATP, and log 5 hours as PIC between Sept 1, 2004 and Sept 1, 2005
you can have an instructor sign an application and POOF!
you can get an ATP glider rating for a particular make/model
(like an experimental L-13 Blanik). So do all of your training
in an experimental, do a single 5 hour solo/PIC flight, and then
have your CFIG send in the form. You'll be the first glider
ATP in the USA! Log the rest of your flights as PIC (as an ATP)
and these 19 flights will qualify for your commercial glider
aeronautical experience.

***********useless history of PIC follows***********

Before Sept 1, 2004, there were a lot of other ways to log
PIC.

You could log it if you flew an experimental glider with
passengers. Just get a launch endorsement and POOF! go
fly your experimental glider with passengers using your
ASEL ticket under 61.31(k)(2)(iii). That changed under the
new 2005 CFR, which really had a Sept 1, 2004 effective date.

You could log PIC if you were acting as PIC and sole
manipulator of the controls during dual instruction.
Again this was changed in the 2005 version.

These PIC definition changes are being overlooked by
inattentive CFIs, and caught by DPEs. This has happened twice
locally with an ASEL DPE, and the applicant was sent home.

All you CFIs out there, take a look at the changes that
got wormed into the 2005 CFR along with the Sport Pilot rule.
PIC, Recreational pilot, and ATP rules have been changed
along with the addition of SP.


In article ,
Mitty wrote:
I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this summer. Never been in a
glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning experience even though
I'll never fly one for hire.

So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2

"20 flights in a glider as PIC" and "5 solo flights"

But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction since I'm not rated
in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo flights. Right?

(The only way I could see someone having 20 flights as PIC and but only 5 solo
flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private glider rating and then
took dual for the Commercial. Right?)

TIA


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

In article .com,
soarski wrote:

Among other items, the 5 solo flights are for demonstrating, that you
actually learnt how to SOAR, meaning that you can stay up for a while!
Which was not required before....years back.

I haven't seen any requirement that soaring MUST be accomplished
during any part of the training or testing for a glider license.
Everything I have read, including the PTS, makes allowance for
doing this training with no soaring weather available whatsoever.

IF soaring weather is available, then soaring is demonstrated,
but if it isn't as far as I can tell this is no barrier to
completing training and license.

Then you might be ready
for your 20 flights, which could be done in the pattern.(short) which
I would not recomend.

Clearly if there is soaring weather, pattern tows are a
missed opportunity. Agreed, just doing patterns isn't the
best way to learn anything except...patterns.

But if the FAA had wanted hours of PIC, they would have
put that in there. It isn't there.

AND This would be for an applicant who is testpilot material.
You know yourself that different people have different talents and
learning curves.

Agreed. Very different.

I have had one pilot (an ATP who was testpilot material) do everything
perfectly, including tow, on the very first flight in a glider.
Out of maybe 50 first flights in gliders, this was the only time
this ever happened. But I have seen (and been) students with
the minimums show proficiency, complete a checkride successfully,
and continue on to fly safely.


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

In article ,
Mitty wrote:


On 3/13/05 10:12 AM, soarski wrote the following:
Guess you did not read the whole story......
it says 3 h of flight instruction with an instuctor, and they mention
OR 10 Training Flights with an instructor.....

That's not the part that is unclear. That's why I didn't mention it. The
question is whether I need 20 solo flights in order to have 20 flights as PIC.
Which it appears that I do.

Solo is by far the most clear and accepted way to log PIC.


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Nyal,

He already has a commercial ASEL rating. So he doesn't need
to take another commercial written test anyway. Getting the extra
10 PIC flights is cheap, and the PTS is almost identical.

There's just no compelling reason to get a Private instead of
a Commercial glider rating if someone has the aeronautical
experience to do it, in my opinion. No downside (for gliders
anyway).

In article ,
Nyal Williams wrote:
I don't want to be a killjoy, but I do have a question:
Why, if you have never been in a glider and plan never
to rent one, do you want to start off by planning to
add a commercial rating right off the bat?

I encourage you to get the private pilot glider rating
and get some experience before adding the glider commercial.
Don't go for bragging rights with absolutely no depth;
you won't impress anyone except those not worthy of
the effort.


At 16:00 13 March 2005, Mitty wrote:
I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this
summer. Never been in a
glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning
experience even though
I'll never fly one for hire.

So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2

'20 flights in a glider as PIC' and '5 solo flights'

But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction
since I'm not rated
in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo
flights. Right?

(The only way I could see someone having 20 flights
as PIC and but only 5 solo
flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private
glider rating and then
took dual for the Commercial. Right?)

TIA






--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

In article . com,
Terry wrote:

At the commercial operation where I teach/check, we have many visitors
that complete their training in a few days. A few solo in a handful of
flights, but the average will be in the 15-20 range assuming the use of
the Schweizer 2-33. The Grob 103 will take longer since its
characteristics are less forgiving.

Same here. Pretty typical solo 4-10 flights for those
who are already airplane pilots. 15-30 for those who've never flown
anything before.

If you are a competent stick and rudder pilot and not a slave to GeePS
wizz stuff,

ROFL. Twin Garmin 100s, fuel totalizer, blah blah. I got
to watch a guy last night playing with toys, and missread back
frequency changes for ATC. Sigh...no need for ME to create a
realistic inflight distraction...

this is a very realistic shedule. You need to ensure that
there are gliders, tows, instructors, and finally an examiner available
to complete within your schedule.

1) Airworthy glider,
2) student,
3) CFI,
4) towpilot,
5) airworthy towplane,
6) good weather,
7) DPE

It's hard to get all 7 together. I've found that the best bet is
to train and test in lousy or marginal soaring weather. Less
competition for resources. Also, scratching for weak lift
is really fun!

Or you can just go somewhere that is set up ideally for this kind of
concentrated training. Isn't there somewhere like that
just south of Pheonix, AZ? Southwest has cheap flights in and out of
PHX, right? ;P


Good luck with your plan.

Terry Claussen
Estrella



--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Mark,

I have had a conversation with just such a transition
pilot who did all his transition flying in the summer.
When the Fall winds came he drifted off downwind and
was shocked at the difficulty in getting back. You
can say poor training; I wouldn't disagree, but I would
also say lack of experience. I don't think a person
is well served by giving him a commercial rating when
he hasn't flown a full season's weather. Both he and
the public will expect too much of him. In case of
any sort of mishap, the FAA will be much harder on
him with the commercial than with the private ticket.


At 18:30 14 March 2005, Mark James Boyd wrote:
Nyal,

He already has a commercial ASEL rating. So he doesn't
need
to take another commercial written test anyway. Getting
the extra
10 PIC flights is cheap, and the PTS is almost identical.

There's just no compelling reason to get a Private
instead of
a Commercial glider rating if someone has the aeronautical
experience to do it, in my opinion. No downside (for
gliders
anyway).

In article ,
Nyal Williams wrote:
I don't want to be a killjoy, but I do have a question:
Why, if you have never been in a glider and plan never
to rent one, do you want to start off by planning to
add a commercial rating right off the bat?

I encourage you to get the private pilot glider rating
and get some before adding the glider commercial.
Don't go for bragging rights with absolutely no depth;
you won't impress anyone except those not worthy of
the effort.


At 16:00 13 March 2005, Mitty wrote:
I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this
summer. Never been in a
glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning
experience even though
I'll never fly one for hire.

So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2

'20 flights in a glider as PIC' and '5 solo flights'

But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction
since I'm not rated
in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo
flights. Right?

(The only way I could see someone having 20 flights
as PIC and but only 5 solo
flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private
glider rating and then
took dual for the Commercial. Right?)

TIA






--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Nyal Williams wrote:

I have had a conversation with just such a transition
pilot who did all his transition flying in the summer.
When the Fall winds came he drifted off downwind and
was shocked at the difficulty in getting back. You
can say poor training; I wouldn't disagree, but I would
also say lack of experience.

Thank you. Yes, a glider rating in your pocket does not necessarily make
you a glider pilot. I have found that by the time a transitioning pilot
meets the Practical Test Standard, quite often they don't *think* like a
glider pilot yet. Your example is a case in point, IMHO. A few years
ago, here in the north east US, a highly experienced power pilot and
newly minted glider instructor, experienced an off field landing during
a local instructional flight. The cause was attributed to the topic at hand.

Tony V.

Tony Verhulst wrote:

Thank you. Yes, a glider rating in your pocket does not necessarily make
you a glider pilot. I have found that by the time a transitioning pilot
meets the Practical Test Standard, quite often they don't *think* like a
glider pilot yet.

We can argue whether cross country skills should be required to get a
glider licence. (It is in Europe.) But I won't argue that a glider
*instructor* without thorough cross country skills is a joke. A blind
teaching the blind.

Stefan

I guess I have been confused all these years. I thought the goal of flying
was to have fun, not to gather ratings... 8^)
-Bob Korves

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:4235d0d8$1@darkstar...
Mitty,

Assuming you have NO glider time as of the date of post,
there are two ways to get PIC time that I know of:

Solo
If you are rated or have privileges

Solo is pretty well defined. The second way is
if you already have a lesser glider rating. One of these
is the Private. As other posters pointed out, there is
almost no reason to get a private instead of a commercial
glider rating if you already have a comm'l ASEL.

Another way to log PIC time is to get a Sport Pilot privilege
in gliders. If you do this, you can then log your instructional
flights as PIC, and you can take passengers as PIC.

If you have access to an LSA glider (such as a 2-33 or
SZD 50-3) then this is an option for you. Also, the process of
flying with two CFIGs before the comm'l glider ride is
quite helpful.

We've done this for a pilot locally who has a Private ASEL
rating. He has enough power hours to get a commercial,
and had just barely soloed. So we did his Sport Pilot glider
privilege add-on and now he can log his further
instructional flights towards the commercial glider rating
which he is pursuing.

In the end, it likely won't matter, and he will have 20 soloes
anyway. The difference is that he will be ready for the ride,
have the experiance complete, and have the form signed earlier,
and during the 2-6 week wait for the checkride he will fly
the other solo flights at his leisure for practice.

Most DPEs won't even schedule a checkride until everything is
signed and ready. So having this a little earlier doesn't
hurt anything.

*****screwy obscure stuff follows************

And there is one other obscure way to log PIC time. You can get
an ATP rating for an experimental glider. If you already have
an ATP, and log 5 hours as PIC between Sept 1, 2004 and Sept 1, 2005
you can have an instructor sign an application and POOF!
you can get an ATP glider rating for a particular make/model
(like an experimental L-13 Blanik). So do all of your training
in an experimental, do a single 5 hour solo/PIC flight, and then
have your CFIG send in the form. You'll be the first glider
ATP in the USA! Log the rest of your flights as PIC (as an ATP)
and these 19 flights will qualify for your commercial glider
aeronautical experience.

***********useless history of PIC follows***********

Before Sept 1, 2004, there were a lot of other ways to log
PIC.

You could log it if you flew an experimental glider with
passengers. Just get a launch endorsement and POOF! go
fly your experimental glider with passengers using your
ASEL ticket under 61.31(k)(2)(iii). That changed under the
new 2005 CFR, which really had a Sept 1, 2004 effective date.

You could log PIC if you were acting as PIC and sole
manipulator of the controls during dual instruction.
Again this was changed in the 2005 version.

These PIC definition changes are being overlooked by
inattentive CFIs, and caught by DPEs. This has happened twice
locally with an ASEL DPE, and the applicant was sent home.

All you CFIs out there, take a look at the changes that
got wormed into the 2005 CFR along with the Sport Pilot rule.
PIC, Recreational pilot, and ATP rules have been changed
along with the addition of SP.


In article ,
Mitty wrote:
I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this summer. Never been
in a
glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning experience even
though
I'll never fly one for hire.

So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2

"20 flights in a glider as PIC" and "5 solo flights"

But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction since I'm not
rated
in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo flights. Right?

(The only way I could see someone having 20 flights as PIC and but only 5
solo
flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private glider rating and
then
took dual for the Commercial. Right?)

TIA


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd