Looking for an affordable 4-passenger aircraft

Originally Posted by Michael

A pressurized twin is out of your price range. So is 160 KIAS at
cruising altitude. 1000 nm range will be iffy.

Assuming you really meant 160 KTAS at crusising altitude, the options
open up.

Starting bottom up in terms of operating cost, think Twin Comanche with
extended range tanks (tips or nacelle) and a Robertson kit. Typically
1400-1500 lbs useful load, about 100 gallons usable fuel (84 is
standard), and 160 KTAS at 7000-11000 ft on 15-16 gph total. Total
operating cost will be about $25K/year, all up (maintenance, fuel,
insurance, hangar, etc) and you can get a good one for $120K.

If you really need more load carrying, think Baron or C-310. Operating
cost goes up by 40% or so, payload goes up about the same, speed might
go up a few knots.

Michael

Thanks, Michael. This helps. I'll check these out.
Tailhook

Check out risingup.com. It has a performance database of nearly all
production GA planes. You can search for aircraft types based upon
performance parameters.

Then use aso.com or controller.com to get an idea of the aircraft
price range.

The 1000nm range is going to eliminate a lot of aircraft. Also, that
is a really long time to stay aloft if you are flying at 160kts.

As you get into your search, remember that the purchase price only
scratches the surface on aircraft expenses. Insurance + hangar fees +
maintenance + fuel & oil costs can be quite large, particularly on a
larger engined twin. I would budget at least $20k / year to fly a
Baron or similar twin (not including acquisition or loan costs).

-Nathan[/quote]

Now this is the kind of information I'm looking for! It took me a few years to find this site but this is really helpful stuff and should help me refine the differences between nice to haves and needs. I'll check out the sites further.

Thanks a lot, Nathan. Should help me get through some of the chaff out there--data but not information I can use. Appreciate the help.

Tailhook

retired Navy pilot
Thanks for serving our country, may God bless you

1. Join AOPA, spend a lot of time on their web site reviewing the
material they have assembled. They offer a great many other member
benefits you will not be disappointed.

children are now moving all over the country
Will you most likey be flying up and down the east coast (consider
ADS-B) or west coast? over the rockies?(must be forced induction i.e.
TSIO) into dixie or the southwest (AC comfort might make alieviate some
of the stress, and make the experience a bit more pleasent for you &
your passengers) midwest or northeast bound (may want to consider some
type of icing protection)

reasonable IFR package--but state of the art not needed
2. Avionics have changed a great deal over the years, newer is better
especially the GPS and weather products. An Auto-Pilot is your friend.

range: 1000 NM
speed: 160 KIAS +

My personal preference would be:
1989+Up Mooney M20M TLS/Bravo with Long Range Tanks (102gals vs 89gal
OEM)

Generally it will fit your price range and came from the factory with a
very good avionics package ...

It will make those numbers and more ...
with four seats and full fuel? Nope, but pretty close check out Jimmy
Garrisons article "The Lowdown on Useful Load" on
http://www.allamericanaircraft.com

Other sites of interest
http://www.mooneypilots.com
http://www.modsquad.cc
http://www.mooneyland.com

Some idea of annual maintenance costs
Those sites will help you determine that with greater precision than I
can. I looked into insurance for a 1966 Mooney M20E ($3600/1yr for a 0
TT student pilot) and read interesting article comparing the cost of
insurance for a Cirrus SR-22 vs a Mooney ... 10K vs 5K ... the Mooney
had a better rate due to its longer and enviable safety record. Just
spend some time looking over the aircraft salvage sites ... note which
makes are nothing more than of melted material, or look like crushed
beer cans or the ones that look intact. Annuals depend on the aircraft
and who you take it to ... I think the local MSC shop here charges
~$60-$65/hour ... the estimated hours depending on equipment is 20-25
hours for the 1989 model so labor is about ~1200-1675 throw in parts,
supplies and addtional labor for a couple of squawks and I think your
going see something close to 2K to 2.5K. Tie downs around here are $85
to $100 a month, hangers are damn near impossible to find, at least
where I live, wait listed for years and go for $$$ per month.
I think you are looking at something between 10K to 15K depending on
how much you fly and how well you buy.

pressurized cabin
I think you'd have to spend a great deal more money to get that.

twin engines if only because they gives you an option when the
weather deteriorates and so does one engine.

I am all for options but their are cons to owning and operating a twin.

1. Aircraft engines are expensive for a reason, quality costs money.
quality engines require, quality maintence and those engines will
consume quantities of fuel ... with a twin it is 2X ...

2. More to manage, easier to "get behind the airplane" or be "consumed
in the checklist" that you forget to "Fly the Plane" therefore it will
consume more time reconfigure for any given phase of flight. So you
drill and drill the emergency routines, your life and possibly the
lives of loved ones may one day be on the line, if you get it wrong in
a real emergency, despite your second engine, trim or configure it
wrong for whatever failure and you can easily wind up dead.

3. Smaller market for twin depresses values and makes unloading one a
bit more difficult. Facts are facts, there are roughly half a million
licensed pilots in the US. How many of those have the currency and
experience to buy a twin? I think it is going to be a tougher sell.

Good luck

I rarely chime in on things like this, but 2 of my favorite planes fall
in this catagory.
First, for a single engine, my vote goes to the Bellanca SuperViking
Turbo. Speed over 200, Range over 750. Current price for at late 70's,
early 80's example is well under 90K.

Second, Twin engine, Aerostar 601P. Pressurized twin with over 230mph
speed and range over 1000. Nice ones can be had for under 200K.

Greg Piney


Tailhook wrote:
Michael Wrote:

A pressurized twin is out of your price range. So is 160 KIAS at
cruising altitude. 1000 nm range will be iffy.

Assuming you really meant 160 KTAS at crusising altitude, the options
open up.

Starting bottom up in terms of operating cost, think Twin Comanche
with
extended range tanks (tips or nacelle) and a Robertson kit. Typically
1400-1500 lbs useful load, about 100 gallons usable fuel (84 is
standard), and 160 KTAS at 7000-11000 ft on 15-16 gph total. Total
operating cost will be about $25K/year, all up (maintenance, fuel,
insurance, hangar, etc) and you can get a good one for $120K.

If you really need more load carrying, think Baron or C-310.
Operating
cost goes up by 40% or so, payload goes up about the same, speed might
go up a few knots.

Michael


Thanks, Michael. This helps. I'll check these out.
Tailhook

"Tailhook" wrote:

I'm an retired Navy pilot with lots of time (6000)--but nothing in the
past 15 years--but my children are now moving all over the country and
I'd like to get back into the air to visit them. I know little about
the general aviation market or products but I'm partial to twin
engines
if only because they gives you an option when the weather deteriorates
and so does one engine. I'm looking for the following:

reliable and affordable--under $200K
4-passenger capability (real passengers--none of my kids are under 6')
twin preferred--or logic why a single engine is not really an
emergency
range: 1000 NM
speed: 160 KIAS +
pressurized cabin (a preference but not a requirement)
reasonable IFR package--but state of the art not needed
Some idea of annual maintenance costs I need to be planning on

What aircraft would you recommend I be looking into?

Cessna P210 fills the bill nicely assuming you can get past the single
engine thing and you mean TAS instead of IAS.

http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=148

Total annual op. cost will be $25k or so for 100 hours.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

My personal preference would be:
1989+Up Mooney M20M TLS/Bravo with Long Range Tanks (102gals vs 89gal
OEM)

Generally it will fit your price range and came from the factory with a
very good avionics package ...

That's what worked for me. Long range tanks are 118 gal, not 102, at
least in mine. Mine also has 'known icing', a Garmin 430 (and 396 on the
yoke) and KFC-150 autopilot/FD, in addition to a bunch of other goodies.
---
Ken Reed
N9124X