The effects of Ethanol on...

On Sat, 6 May 2006 22:04:30 +1000, "ventus2"
wrote:

They're doing it in Brazil, so
effectively that Brazil is now self sufficient in fuel supply (and they
don't have much indigenous oil production) and have tapped only a small
portion of their production potential...I'm pretty sure we could do the
same in North America.

Brazil has a lot of sugar cane which yields far more alcohol than corn
and lends itself well to mechanized growing and harvesting.


When I stayed in Brazil for a few months building motorgliders at Aeromot
and hanging out with the engineers, I was informed that auto engines there
(eg. 1.4, 1.6L VW Golfs, no, nothing to do with 'thats because they are
VW's') were lasting on average around 60,000km using the high blend ethanol
fuel (the one that costs 1/5th the price of normal fuel).

Here we'd expect current VW engines to last 150 to 200,000 miles
depending on how they are driven.


We all fuss and potter over our aircraft engines and always seem to have our
fingers in there making sure that all is well, and more often than not they
are fine for their lifespan. How many 'average' people would take the cover
off their 'eco' car engine to make sure that the timing is right, check the

That eco engine is far, far more complex than any standard aircraft
engines I've seen. Some run very high compression (as much as 13:1
for gas) with variable cam timing, variable solid state ignition
timing, and high pressure fuel injection. On some that is even timed.

sparks plugs etc? More often than not, they just run.
I am certainly not confident in taking the heads off a car engine to see the
affects of Ethanol on the pistons/valves, yet more often than not, people
seem much more at ease taking the heads off their Rotax or Jabiru engine to
have a bit of a look.

Yup!

I guess this is a whole different topic, though eventually will we get
reports in on what is happening to the insides of the engines.

I've seen a few reports that said the cylinders and combustion
chambers were still shiny after many miles. However I have heard
nothing of fuel tanks, lines, or fuel injection systems.

If those mileage life time figures hold true those engines are lasting
a fraction of what we'd expect here. OTOH they may not be the same
engines we are seeing, but most of today's engines (even out of
Detroit or where ever they get them) seem to last a very long time
with very little maintenance.

My Wife's old Eagle Summit which got into the low 30 MPG range when it
was in its early years still gets close to 30 with nigh onto 200,000
miles. It's had a couple of water pumps, brakes, many tires, and the
heater finally gave up, but it still starts and runs well.

Bio-diesel might be the way to go in many areas, but I think we are
fast approaching the point were it is going to cease to be
inexpensive. It's a good use for soybeans and for scrap cooking oil.
There are reports of truckers getting a couple MPG improvement using
the stuff compared to standard diesel and when you are only getting 6
or 7 MPG that could be substantial savings. OTOH they have to add
alcohol to the stuff up here in the frozen north during winters or the
stuff gels in the lines and tanks.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Time will tell.

Chris

Roger wrote:
On Sat, 6 May 2006 22:04:30 +1000, "ventus2"
wrote:

They're doing it in Brazil, so
effectively that Brazil is now self sufficient in fuel supply (and they
don't have much indigenous oil production) and have tapped only a small
portion of their production potential...I'm pretty sure we could do the
same in North America.

Brazil has a lot of sugar cane which yields far more alcohol than corn
and lends itself well to mechanized growing and harvesting.


Ther are temperate sugar canes, like sorghum. It grow OK in Ohio,
don't know how the sugar content compares to tropical sugar
canes.

I suppose we could import our ethanol from Cuba...

--

FF

wrote

Ther are temperate sugar canes, like sorghum. It grow OK in Ohio,
don't know how the sugar content compares to tropical sugar
canes.

How about sugar beets? When I lived in Ohio, they grew a lot of it, then.
(30 years ago)

How would it be for making alcohol?
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:
wrote
Ther are temperate sugar canes, like sorghum. It grow OK in Ohio,
don't know how the sugar content compares to tropical sugar
canes.

How about sugar beets? When I lived in Ohio, they grew a lot of it, then.
(30 years ago)

How would it be for making alcohol?

It still cost 2x as much as gas to produce and you use 2x as much of it.
In Brazil as in the USA, Ethanol is subsidized to make it feasible.
They would be better off making rum from that sugarcane and trading it
for gas.

Tony

On Sat, 06 May 2006 23:30:09 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On Sat, 6 May 2006 17:19:35 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


".Blueskies." wrote in message
y.com...


What is the power density of the ethanol? I know you have to shoot more of
it through the engine to keep from running lean. How does fuel consumption
compare; gph gasoleen vs gph ethanol. What weight difference is there?

About 10% more needed per HP. A little less than 10% weight.

With Methanol containing about half the energy per unit volume of gas
I have a problem reconciling that 10% more. What am I missing?


The M. Talking Ethanol, not Methanol. Different horses for different
courses, as they say.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

On Sun, 07 May 2006 16:58:53 -0400, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Sat, 06 May 2006 23:30:09 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On Sat, 6 May 2006 17:19:35 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


".Blueskies." wrote in message
gy.com...


What is the power density of the ethanol? I know you have to shoot more of
it through the engine to keep from running lean. How does fuel consumption
compare; gph gasoleen vs gph ethanol. What weight difference is there?

About 10% more needed per HP. A little less than 10% weight.

With Methanol containing about half the energy per unit volume of gas

Change the word Methanol to Ethanol.

I have a problem reconciling that 10% more. What am I missing?


The M. Talking Ethanol, not Methanol. Different horses for different
courses, as they say.

The Methanol was a one letter typo. I knew what I meant.:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***