Getting the MOCA

What are the odds of getting the MOCA instead of the MEA going from the
Phoenix area to Santa Fe? Anyone know? I like to be IFR for the
services, but the MEAs are a pain....

--Dan

Dan wrote:

What are the odds of getting the MOCA instead of the MEA going from the
Phoenix area to Santa Fe? Anyone know? I like to be IFR for the
services, but the MEAs are a pain....

--Dan

The MOCA cannot be assigned except within 22 miles of the VOR station,
nor can you legally request it. It's your responsibility to use a
Victor airway within the rules.

Having said that, if the controller has you on radar and is willing to
assign you his center minimum instrument altitude for the area, that is
fine. The MIA may be lower than the MOCA or it may be higher. And, the
controller has to have the time to do all this.

Someday, there will be "G" altitudes charted for some of those western
area airways, but the FAA is moving very slowly. They just don't have
the manpower. The establishment of "G" (for GPS) altitudes is more than
a paper drill; they have to flight inspect for terrain clearance and
communications capability.

The MOCA cannot be assigned except within 22 miles of the VOR station, nor can you legally request it.

I have never heard that it would be illegal to request anything. Where
is it written that a pilot violates the law by requesting a MOCA?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I just file for the altitude I want. If I get it, fine. Usually I get
it. If not I will request it from Departure or Center during climb..
Sometimes I get what I want, sometimes we haggle out a compromise.
Almost always it is below the MEA.

I do this typically when headwinds are strong and I always explain the
reason to the controller. Often a Center controller will even allow me
to be non-radar (below his view) and ask me to report position once in
a while.

On 6/23/2006 1:52 AM, Dan wrote the following:
What are the odds of getting the MOCA instead of the MEA going from the
Phoenix area to Santa Fe? Anyone know? I like to be IFR for the
services, but the MEAs are a pain....

--Dan

Jose wrote:
The MOCA cannot be assigned except within 22 miles of the VOR station,
nor can you legally request it.


I have never heard that it would be illegal to request anything. Where
is it written that a pilot violates the law by requesting a MOCA?

Jose

You have never heard that it would be illegal to request anything?

Okie Dokie.

Mitty wrote:

I just file for the altitude I want. If I get it, fine. Usually I get
it. If not I will request it from Departure or Center during climb..
Sometimes I get what I want, sometimes we haggle out a compromise.
Almost always it is below the MEA.

I do this typically when headwinds are strong and I always explain the
reason to the controller. Often a Center controller will even allow me
to be non-radar (below his view) and ask me to report position once in a
while.

On 6/23/2006 1:52 AM, Dan wrote the following:

What are the odds of getting the MOCA instead of the MEA going from the
Phoenix area to Santa Fe? Anyone know? I like to be IFR for the
services, but the MEAs are a pain....

--Dan

But, it is not the MOCA the center assigns you. It's the MIA.

Here is what the ATC handbook says about controllers assigning MOCAs
beyond 22 miles of the VOR:

4-5-6. MINIMUM EN ROUTE ALTITUDES
Except as provided in subparas a and b below, assign altitudes at or
above the MEA for the route segment being flown. When a lower MEA for
subsequent segments of the route is applicable, issue the lower MEA only
after the aircraft is over or past the Fix/NAVAID beyond which the lower
MEA applies unless a crossing restriction at or above the higher MEA is
issued.
a. An aircraft may be cleared below the MEA but not below the MOCA for
the route segment being flown if the altitude assigned is at least 300
feet above the floor of controlled airspace and one of the following
conditions are met:
NOTE-
Controllers must be aware that in the event of radio communications
failure, a pilot will climb to the MEA for the route segment being flown.
1. Nonradar procedures are used only within 22 miles of a VOR, VORTAC,
or TACAN.
2. Radar procedures are used only when an operational advantage is
realized and the following actions are taken:
(a) Radar navigational guidance is provided until the aircraft is
within 22 miles of the NAVAID, and
(b) Lost communications instructions are issued.

You have never heard that it would be illegal to request anything?

Ok, you take me too literally. Rather than play games, I've never heard
that it's illegal to request an altitude from ATC. It may be illegal
for ATC to grant that altitude, but illegal to request it? That would
be news to me.

But I'm willing to read news. Tell me more.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
You have never heard that it would be illegal to request anything?


Ok, you take me too literally. Rather than play games, I've never heard
that it's illegal to request an altitude from ATC. It may be illegal
for ATC to grant that altitude, but illegal to request it? That would
be news to me.

But I'm willing to read news. Tell me more.

Jose
The MOCA was never intended to be an operational altitude. Where is a
large difference between MEA and MOCA the TERPs folks who design airways
have the option to include an MOCA for emergency use. You many not have
VOR reception and you may not be able to speak with ATC.

Then, there is the following:

91.177 Minimum altitudes for IFR operations.
(a) Operation of aircraft at minimum altitudes. Except when necessary
for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft under IFR below -
(1) The applicable minimum altitudes prescribed in Parts 95 and 97 of
this chapter; or
(2) If no applicable minimum altitude is prescribed in those parts -
(i) In the case of operations over an area designated as a mountainous
area in part 95, an altitude of 2,000 feet above the highest obstacle
within a horizontal distance of 4 nautical miles from the course to be
flown; or
(ii) In any other case, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest
obstacle within a horizontal distance of 4 nautical miles from the
course to be flown.

However, if both a MEA and a MOCA are prescribed for a particular route
or route segment, a person may operate an aircraft below the MEA down
to, but not below, the MOCA, when within 22 nautical miles of the VOR
concerned (based on the pilot's reasonable estimate of that distance).

The last paragraph is particulary on-point and is regulatory.

Some of this has morphed in practice because IFR-certified GPS
navigators are way ahead of the FAA ability to react.

Thus, the language in the 7110.65, which I included in my response to
Mitty. But, notice that requires a radar monitor and a lost comm
procedure (if, in fact, that is ever followed is another matter).

The controller is hard-pressed to provide that procedure unless he uses
his MIA, which makes it an MIA route, not an MOCA route.

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:LTNmg.34520$AB3.5290@fed1read02...

The MOCA cannot be assigned except within 22 miles of the VOR station, nor
can you legally request it. It's your responsibility to use a Victor
airway within the rules.


You're one for three.

No law limits what may be requested.

ATC can assign the MOCA beyond 22 miles of the VOR if radar navigational
guidance is provided until the aircraft is within 22 miles of it and lost
communications instructions are issued.

If a pilot complies with that assignment he will be in violation of FAR
91.177.

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:F7Umg.34528$AB3.5292@fed1read02...

You have never heard that it would be illegal to request anything?


I haven't. What requests are prohibited by law?