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Logging PIC time as student instrument pilot in IMC



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 24th 03, 07:05 PM
Greg Esres
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Default Logging PIC time as student instrument pilot in IMC

I recently realized that I should not have included any "actual"
(IMC) time recorded in my logbook as PIC time while I was an
instrument student.


Why not? If you were actual, then it was PIC.

how about adding a "corrective" (new) entry?

That's what I do. Just make +/- entries to total with explanation.
  #2  
Old July 24th 03, 08:07 PM
Gary L. Drescher
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"Marty Ross" wrote in message
t...
I recently realized that I should not have included any "actual" (IMC)

time
recorded in my logbook as PIC time while I was an instrument student.


Why not? You weren't PIC, but you can still log PIC time as the rated sole
manipulator (unless your CFII was flying the plane for you).

Any suggestions for correcting this error? Rather than making messy
corrections and recalculating page totals, how about adding a "corrective"
(new) entry?

More generally, are there any accepted conventions for retroactively
correcting logbook errors?


I use an Excel spreadsheet as my logbook, so corrections are seamless.

--Gary


  #3  
Old July 24th 03, 08:14 PM
Greg Esres
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If it was actual, then someone else had better have been PIC.

The question was concerning logging, not acting.

  #4  
Old July 24th 03, 08:25 PM
Ron Natalie
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Default


"Greg Esres" wrote in message ...
If it was actual, then someone else had better have been PIC.

The question was concerning logging, not acting.

I know that (and said so in the second sentence which you decided
to omit). What I was trying to address was your comment:
If you were actual, then it was PIC.

Which makes no sense. What is the "it" in the second clause.
Insturment time has nothing to do with PIC time.


  #5  
Old July 24th 03, 08:34 PM
Ron Rosenfeld
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:32:38 GMT, "Marty Ross"
wrote:

I recently realized that I should not have included any "actual" (IMC) time
recorded in my logbook as PIC time while I was an instrument student.


What makes you think that?

To log PIC time:

61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private,
or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight
time during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the
pilot is rated;

Were you not 'rated' in the aircraft?

To log instrument time:

61.51(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument
time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely
by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight
conditions.

Neither paragraph says anything about needing to have an instrument rating;
or even about being qualified to ACT as PIC in the aircraft.

You do have to be rated. In other words, if you are a private pilot with a
Single-Engine Land rating, you cannot log PIC time in a Multi-Engine
aircraft (or a balloon, glider, etc).

Just remember: the rules for LOGGING PIC bear no relationship to the rules
for ACTING as PIC.



Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #6  
Old July 24th 03, 09:45 PM
Paul Baechler
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In article ,
Greg Esres wrote:

Why not? If you were actual, then it was PIC.


If he was actual is irrelevant. If he was sole manipulator, it was PIC.

--
Paul Baechler


  #7  
Old July 26th 03, 09:02 AM
Marty Ross
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Default

Wow, what a mincing (slicing/dicing) of words this post has triggered!

I appreciate all of your attempts to second (and even third) guess what was
the original intend of my post in order to help!

Indeed, it was my understanding that I could not log PIC time for IMC I had
flown (yes - albeit as "sole manipulator") while with my instrument
instructor. This is because on my last few flights he corrected his entry
in my logbook, reducing the PIC time by exactly the amount he wrote in the
"Actual" column. When I asked him about this, I believe he said something
like: "since you're not currently rated to act as PIC in actual IFR
conditions, you can't log it as PIC time [even though you're sole
manipulator of the controls]" (content in brackets my interpretation of his
meaning).

I understood this situation to be similar to the situation another person
asked recently on a related forum: "can a student pilot that flies with me
[a PPL] log time?", and the consensus here was: "no, he can't because he's
not yet rated to fly [in the current situation; namely, with a passenger,
even though he was sole manipulator]". Using that logic, it seemed to make
sense to me.

However, as someone pointed out, my post really was more about correcting
logbook errors. The fact that I may not have the error I think I have was
secondary. And, about that, I think I will insert a "adjustment" line into
my logbook that corrects for any errors I may find (no one seemed to think
that was a "bad" idea). I don't like the idea of using white-out and
recalculating page balances, it seems too messy and could introduce new
errors that would be even harder to correct later.

Regards,

-- Marty

"Marty Ross" wrote in message
t...
I recently realized that I should not have included any "actual" (IMC)

time
recorded in my logbook as PIC time while I was an instrument student.

Any suggestions for correcting this error? Rather than making messy
corrections and recalculating page totals, how about adding a "corrective"
(new) entry?

More generally, are there any accepted conventions for retroactively
correcting logbook errors?






  #8  
Old July 26th 03, 12:14 PM
Ron Rosenfeld
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On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 08:02:19 GMT, "Marty Ross"
wrote:

since you're not currently rated to act as PIC in actual IFR
conditions, you can't log it as PIC time [even though you're sole
manipulator of the controls]" (content in brackets my interpretation of his
meaning).


He is incorrect. His understanding of the term "rated" is not in accord
with the FAA Chief Counsel.

From a CC opinion (6/3/1999):

"14 CFR section 61.51(e) governs the logging of pilot-in-command time.
This section provides, in pertinent part, that a private pilot may log
pilot-in-command time for that flight time during which that person is the
sole manipulator of the controls of an AIRCRAFT FOR WHICH THE PILOT IS
RATED. (Emphasis added)

The term "rated," as used under 14 CFR section 61.51(e), refers to the
pilot holding the appropriate aircraft ratings (category, class, and type,
if a type rating is required). These ratings are listed under 14 CFR
section 61.5 and are placed on the pilot certificate.

Therefore, based on the scenario given to Mr. Lynch, a private pilot may
log pilot-in-command time, in a complex or high performance airplane, for
those portions of the flight when he or she is the sole manipulator of the
controls because the aircraft is being operated is single-engine land and
the private pilot holds a single-engine land rating. Note, while the
private pilot may log this time as pilot-in-command time in accordance with
14 CFR section 61.51(e), he or she may not act as the pilot in command
unless he or she has the appropriate endorsement as required under 14 CFR
section 61.31."

Also note this earlier CC opinion regarding your exact situation:

"In your third question you ask "[d]uring instrument training, how
shall a VFR Private Pilot log the following flight time:
Pilot-In-Command time, Simulated Instrument time, and Actual
Instrument time, when that pilot is ...
A) ... under the hood?
B) ...in actual instrument conditions?
C) ... under the hood in actual instrument conditions?"
The answer is the VFR private pilot may log all of the flight time
you described as PIC flight time under FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i)
if he was the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for
which he is rated."


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #9  
Old July 28th 03, 06:53 PM
David Brooks
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Default

"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...

However, as someone pointed out, my post really was more about correcting
logbook errors.


You got more interest in the first part (your incorrect
assumption) since that has a right/wrong answer and makes a
difference. How you make entries in the logbook is merely a
preference with no real importance to anyone except neatniks
:-)

The fact that I may not have the error I think I have was
secondary.


To you, perhaps, but many who post here are more interested
in answering questions that seem to be important to them
than questions that are merely important to you :-)


Another possible line of inquiry might be:

Has anyone had any grief from a DE or FAA rep about the way they made
corrections in their logbook? What was it that made the examiner unhappy?

(to the people in r.a.p and not r.a.i, welcome to the thread)

-- David Brooks


  #10  
Old July 28th 03, 10:37 PM
Snowbird
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Default

"Marty Ross" wrote in message rthlink.net...
Indeed, it was my understanding that I could not log PIC time for IMC I had
flown (yes - albeit as "sole manipulator") while with my instrument
instructor. This is because on my last few flights he corrected his entry
in my logbook, reducing the PIC time by exactly the amount he wrote in the
"Actual" column. When I asked him about this, I believe he said something
like: "since you're not currently rated to act as PIC in actual IFR
conditions, you can't log it as PIC time [even though you're sole
manipulator of the controls]" (content in brackets my interpretation of his
meaning).


It is my belief that your flight instructor is incorrect
and that his opinion disagrees with several opinions from the
FAA Counsel's Office.

FWIW, this is how my actual time is logged: as PIC. My husband,
or my CFI, who acted as PIC, also logged PIC time.

I understood this situation to be similar to the situation another person
asked recently on a related forum: "can a student pilot that flies with me
[a PPL] log time?", and the consensus here was: "no, he can't because he's
not yet rated to fly [in the current situation; namely, with a passenger,
even though he was sole manipulator]". Using that logic, it seemed to make
sense to me.


I don't follow how your logic makes sense of this. There is a specific
regulation which covers logging PIC time. It states several
restrictions, including that the pilot must be rated. It says
nothing about the conditions of flight. If you're rated, and you
meet another criterion (such as "sole manipulator of the controls")
you can log PIC. Different situation than the student pilot analogy.

There is another regulation which covers who can *act* as PIC
under IFR, but it says nothing about logging the time.

Now, I will admit that to the uninitiated, this distinction between
*acting* as PIC vs *logging* PIC seems a bit bizarre. However,
to this I reply with DH's words: "these are Federal Regulations.
You're expecting them to make sense. That's your mistake. That's
where you're going wrong."

However, as someone pointed out, my post really was more about correcting
logbook errors.


FWIW:
I correct logbook entry errors the same way I correct my laboratory
notebook at work. Whiteout is verboten. I cross out the errant numbers
with a single ink line, initial and date above the line. I either
write in the correct number next to it, or write something like "see
entry XXX dated xx-xx-xxxx for correction".

HTH,
Sydney
 




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