A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Instrument Flight Rules
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

No SID in clearance, fly it anyway?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old November 1st 03, 05:04 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:47:43 -0500, Ron Rosenfeld
wrote:

However, it is your right to fly any ODP, even if it is not given to you in
your clearance.


I sure didn't know that. What if the tower says "after takeoff maintain
runway heading, climb to 5000" etc. etc. and the ODP has some other sort
of departure (e.g. a turn of some kind)?

I'm relatively new to this but I thought I had to follow what the tower
says in the clearance, until handed off to Departure...

Dave Blevins
  #12  
Old November 1st 03, 06:07 AM
Greg Esres
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I thought I had to follow what the tower says in the clearance,
until handed off to Departure...

You should be skeptical about following instructions from a non-radar
tower in poor visibility conditions. Tower guys have told me that
they're not going to issue instructions contrary to the DP unless good
visibility conditions prevail or the pilot assures them that he can
maintain his own obstacle clearance.





  #13  
Old November 1st 03, 12:17 PM
Ron Rosenfeld
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 22:14:53 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

So, in
theory, until the time I was actually given a vector, I would have been
within my rights to turn left to 040 as soon as I felt it was safe?


That's how I interpret the rules. Although there may be some local
procedures to follow, such as not turning until at the airport boundary, or
at a certain altitude, etc.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #14  
Old November 1st 03, 12:28 PM
Ron Rosenfeld
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 03:39:01 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:

However, it is your right to fly any ODP, even if it is not given to
you in your clearance.

Yeah, but you'd better coordinate that with ATC. The AIM doesn't make
that clear.


It seems clear to me:

5-2-6... "ODP's are recommended for obstruction clearance and may be flown
*without ATC clearance* unless an alternate departure procedure (SID or
radar vector) has been specifically assigned by ATC." (emphasis mine)




Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #17  
Old November 1st 03, 01:10 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well, only a reading of the ATC tapes would tell you whether the departure
a issue was in your clearance. If it was not, and it is the "100% drill"
to get that departure, you should have sought clarification because you
sensed a crack that you were possibly going to fall through.

As to your distinction between SIDs and DPs, there isn't any in this
country, at least not until they sign out a policy reinstating SIDs.
There are Obstacle DPs and there are ATC DPs. Of course, some of the
charts are old so they state "SID" on them.

No one said it would be easy. ;-)

Roy Smith wrote:

Had a strange thing happen to me today. I filed IFR HPN - HFD (White
Plains NY to Hartford CT). The route part of my clearance came back
"radar vectors Carmel[VOR], V1, Hartford[VOR], Direct".

Usually out of HPN I would expect to get the Westchester-1 departure,
but it wasn't in my clearance, and I when I read back the clearance
without it, I got "readback correct". Seemed a little strange, but I
went with the flow (I should have asked for clarification, I'm not
sure why I didn't). The turn in the SID took us away from our first
fix, so I guess I figured they were just doing us a favor or something
with a shorter routing.

We took off and I started climbing straight out. The HPN-1 has an
almost 180-degree turn almost immediately. The guy I was with asked
me why I wasn't making the turn and I said we weren't on the SID. I
asked tower and they said I should be on the SID.

So, what went wrong? Did I goof? Am I supposed to fly the SID (not a
DP) even though it's not in the clearance? Is it more likely that it
was in the clearance but I just didn't hear it and the controller
didn't notice that it wasn't in the readback?


  #18  
Old November 1st 03, 06:19 PM
Bob Gardner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Check the latest AIM...SIDs are back.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
...
Well, only a reading of the ATC tapes would tell you whether the departure
a issue was in your clearance. If it was not, and it is the "100% drill"
to get that departure, you should have sought clarification because you
sensed a crack that you were possibly going to fall through.

As to your distinction between SIDs and DPs, there isn't any in this
country, at least not until they sign out a policy reinstating SIDs.
There are Obstacle DPs and there are ATC DPs. Of course, some of the
charts are old so they state "SID" on them.

No one said it would be easy. ;-)

Roy Smith wrote:

Had a strange thing happen to me today. I filed IFR HPN - HFD (White
Plains NY to Hartford CT). The route part of my clearance came back
"radar vectors Carmel[VOR], V1, Hartford[VOR], Direct".

Usually out of HPN I would expect to get the Westchester-1 departure,
but it wasn't in my clearance, and I when I read back the clearance
without it, I got "readback correct". Seemed a little strange, but I
went with the flow (I should have asked for clarification, I'm not
sure why I didn't). The turn in the SID took us away from our first
fix, so I guess I figured they were just doing us a favor or something
with a shorter routing.

We took off and I started climbing straight out. The HPN-1 has an
almost 180-degree turn almost immediately. The guy I was with asked
me why I wasn't making the turn and I said we weren't on the SID. I
asked tower and they said I should be on the SID.

So, what went wrong? Did I goof? Am I supposed to fly the SID (not a
DP) even though it's not in the clearance? Is it more likely that it
was in the clearance but I just didn't hear it and the controller
didn't notice that it wasn't in the readback?




  #19  
Old November 1st 03, 06:28 PM
Greg Esres
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

may be flown *without ATC clearance*

I said coordination, not clearance.

If the ODP says go to a fix, and climb in a holding pattern, and
Center already has someone holding there, then you've created a
problem.


  #20  
Old November 1st 03, 06:30 PM
Greg Esres
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

you receive a vector from ATC, you are obligated to follow it (or
question it if you feel it is unsafe

What tower would give you is not a vector; it's a heading.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GPS approaches with Center Dan Luke Instrument Flight Rules 104 October 22nd 03 09:42 PM
IFR Routing Toronto to Windsor (CYTZ - CYQG) Rob Pesan Instrument Flight Rules 5 October 7th 03 01:50 PM
required readback on clearance [email protected] Instrument Flight Rules 15 September 17th 03 04:33 PM
Picking up a Clearance Airborne Brad Z Instrument Flight Rules 30 August 29th 03 01:31 AM
Big John Bites Dicks (Security Clearance) Badwater Bill Home Built 27 August 21st 03 12:40 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.