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#11
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"Bruce E Butts" wrote in message
... Mike, Veeduber recommends that one drill with a #40, deburr and then dimple with the 1/8" dimple dies. I have done some like that and some using the #30 drill first. Sometimes I have to 'open up' the hole a bit with a reamer when trying to put in the rivet when I use the #40 bit first. Veeduber's advise was in reference to using blind rivets iirc. The springback dimple dies are meant for dimpling fuel tank skins so that smearing sealant will not make the rivet stand proud of the dimple so I think they may be a few thousandths oversize. Hope this helps and remember all advice is worth what you paid for it! Bruce Be careful using a 1/8" dimple die in a #40 hole. The aluminum can develop radial cracks around the hole as the dimple die is forced into the smaller hole. Check on scrap, first, obviously, but I suspect it is a function of thickness as well as material (e.g., 6061...). Michael Pilla |
#12
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Using the scrap backup is an accepted practice for holes that have been
dimpled, but are too big to hold the correct cleco due to the deforming of the hole from dimpled. If its something that needs a blind rivet, then of course, this won't work. John |
#13
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Kyle Boatright wrote: A 1/8" dimple die won't fit in a #40 hole, which is roughly 3/32. -------------------------------------------- Dear Kyle (and the Group), I believe my cited comment had to do with using poppers. The 100 degree dimpling sets use a steel mandrel -- typically, a finishing nail with the point clipped off -- that you replace periodically as the work progresses. When using thin/soft metal, using the popper-type dimpling dies tends to enlarge the hole. Come back to set (pull) the rivets and they're liable to pull right through the hole, leading to the Conventional Wisdom that countersunk-head poppers don't work. They do -- at least for aluminum poppers -- but only if the hole is the proper size. Start with a pilot hole that is smaller than the intended rivet size -- and select a pulling mandrel to fit. Anything that fits will work. (I think I used 4d finishing nails.) Just make sure your puller can grip the shank and that the head of the nail is large enough to not pull through the die. A pneumatic puller will give you more uniform results. You will need to ream/drill the hole to size prior to setting the rivet but the result is a tight, symmetrical dimple. If you have a lathe, dimpling dies for poppers are easy to make. (Hint: For the male die, grind the angle into your tool bit. For the female, simply grind a drill bit to 100 degrees. They may be used as-made but will last longer if case-hardened.) 100 degree dimple die sets for poppers are also available from AirParts, ATS and so on. -R.S.Hoover |
#14
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Thanks. Hopefully there is more dimpling to do where I can try starting
with a smaller hole. Mike "Drew Dalgleish" wrote in message ... Hi Mike It may be an issue with the 6061 skins cuz I found the same problem when I was building my rebel. I used the cheap dimpler that has a nail through the centre or the same dies that I welded to a pair of vice grips. Drilling 3/32" then dimpling then opening up the holes to #30 worked for me. I am using cleco brand and, yes, I am using the copper ones. The dimple dies are the "springback" ones from US Tool. The skins are 6061 if that makes a difference. Mike MU-2 "Kyle Boatright" wrote in message ... "Mike Rapoport" wrote in message k.net... When I dimple holes in thin sheet they get larger to the point where the clecos won't hold. Should I drill holes that are to be dimpled for 1/8 rivets a little smaller (like #31 or #32)? What are others doing? Mike Murphy Moose. Never had that problem and I did a bunch of drilling and dimpling on the RV-6. Are you drilling #30 to start with and using quality dimple dies? I hate to ask, but are you using the copper colored clecos, or have you accidentally dipped into the silver ones? Another option is that your cleco's are worn out. Any chance of that? KB |
#15
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Unfortunately the areas with the flush rivets (leading edges of flaps and
ailerons) have no access to insert or remove the scrap or washers after riveting. Mike "John T" wrote in message ... Whatcha need to do is take a little scrap of aluminum with the correct size hole in it. When you put the cleco through your part, you put the scap on the end of the cleco and that will "clamp" the parts to your cleco. John |
#16
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In article t,
"Mike Rapoport" wrote: When I dimple holes in thin sheet they get larger to the point where the clecos won't hold. Should I drill holes that are to be dimpled for 1/8 rivets a little smaller (like #31 or #32)? What are others doing? Mike Murphy Moose. Assuming you aren't overdimpling, which isn't a given, I'd check the pre-dimpled hole size. I mean really check it, with a comparator if possible, or a set of gauge pins at least. You're never going to get a round hole with a drill bit, and it's common to get them oversized, as well. If dimpling adds to the hole diameter, you obviously don't want to start with a hole that's already too big. A drill chuck that runs out, a bent drill, or holding the drill at some angle other than perpendicular to the workpiece will make an oversize hole. The closest approximation to a round, correctly sized hole, I believe, is to punch it and then ream it. For newer Van's customers, the punching is done. Throw out those silly drill bits and get a couple of reamers. |
#17
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dimpling
Mike, Don't drill #40 then dimple with 1/8" die. If you look at the
finished dimple under high power magnification (ie; jewelers loupe), you will find the metal has cracked around the edges of the hole due to distortion. Not good. Definitely drill #30 for your 1/8" dimple. Also, dimpling the hole definitely makes it bigger. Try putting the undrilled end of a number drill in the hole before and after dimpling. You will find the hole grows by a drill size or two. The Cleveland tank dies I used stretched the hole about .0045 larger and I had trouble making 3/32" rivets hold properly. Look at the geometry of the die on a cross section and picture what the hole will do if you push the cone deeper into the hole. For my two cents, I'll stick with standard or springback dimple dies from now on. As to your problem, my guess is either your drill bit could be dulled or you're not staying straight with the hole when drilling. Also, be careful how much deburring you do on a hole after drilling. Too many turns and the hole gets bigger. YMMV. Good luck and keep driving those rivets. Bill Korff "Bruce E Butts" wrote in message ... Mike, Veeduber recommends that one drill with a #40, deburr and then dimple with the 1/8" dimple dies. I have done some like that and some using the #30 drill first. Sometimes I have to 'open up' the hole a bit with a reamer when trying to put in the rivet when I use the #40 bit first. Veeduber's advise was in reference to using blind rivets iirc. The springback dimple dies are meant for dimpling fuel tank skins so that smearing sealant will not make the rivet stand proud of the dimple so I think they may be a few thousandths oversize. Hope this helps and remember all advice is worth what you paid for it! Bruce |
#18
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dimpling
The objective is to end up with a hole which after dimpling is #30,
i.e. 0.1285. Others have noted that dimpling enlarges the hole. So, MY strategy is what you alluded to earlier - drill slightly undersize. Big enough to admit the cleco, but smaller than you want the hole to end up after dimpling. My procedure for flush riveted skins is to drill #40 and cleco with 3/32", take everything apart, deburr, put it back together, drill (or ream - its a little marginal, but you can ream to #32 from a #40 pilot hole, and it leaves less of a burr - notice I'm NOT deburring a second time) with #32, take it apart, dimple, cleco with 1/8, rivet. I'm an inexperienced builder, so this anal retentive procedure makes up for my lack of skills and confidence. I also have a punch that simultaneously punches and dimples. You can get them from Aircraft Spruce and others, but be aware that the American made punch costs more than a whole ChinCom Roper-Whitney knockoff punch set. And they are not actually that useful - you can't use them for matched hole tooling for instance. |
#19
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dimpling
In article .com,
"flybynightkarmarepair" wrote: The objective is to end up with a hole which after dimpling is #30, i.e. 0.1285. Others have noted that dimpling enlarges the hole. So, MY strategy is what you alluded to earlier - drill slightly undersize. Big enough to admit the cleco, but smaller than you want the hole to end up after dimpling. My procedure for flush riveted skins is to drill #40 and cleco with 3/32", take everything apart, deburr, put it back together, drill (or ream - its a little marginal, but you can ream to #32 from a #40 pilot hole, and it leaves less of a burr - notice I'm NOT deburring a second time) with #32, take it apart, dimple, cleco with 1/8, rivet. I'm an inexperienced builder, so this anal retentive procedure makes up for my lack of skills and confidence. I also have a punch that simultaneously punches and dimples. You can get them from Aircraft Spruce and others, but be aware that the American made punch costs more than a whole ChinCom Roper-Whitney knockoff punch set. And they are not actually that useful - you can't use them for matched hole tooling for instance. I would suggest looking at the hole with a 10X magnifier and look for small cracks. The best dimpled holes are those that are drilled, deburred, then dimpled with a good set of dies and somethhing to hold the dies. The combination punch/dimpler leaves a fair number of stress raisers in the hole and can be susceptible to fatigue. -- Remve "_" from email to reply to me personally. |
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