Private Pilot in 10 days

Gilan ) wrote:
: I just started flying at a school that offers Private Pilot in 10 days. I
: plan on taking a bit longer then 10 days but wondered how long the average
: person takes to complete their PPL?
:
: Private Pilot in 10 days
: http://www.perfectplanes.com/index.html
:
10 days is going to be 4 hrs of flying a day. That is going to be
very intense and I would worry about mental fatigue. After about
10 hrs, most students get into over controlling the plane (read the
posts on "why are my landings getting worse" over the past decade)
and thouse flights are will take quite a bit out of you. I never
did two lessons in one day but sometimes it took a few days to get
over it and I'm used to marathon hacking sessions which involve
complex mental concentration for ten or more hours for days on end.

FWIW, my scuba class was 126 hrs of class room time and 126 hrs of
pool time before the open water tests over 3 months. Compare that
to the about 50 hrs of flight time to get my PPL and less than 10
hrs of class room time. 10 days is 240 hrs if you don't waste any
of sleeping. I don't think thats enough time to absorb what you
need to know. When I dive, I see the lack of training in others
all the time but most of them went to 3 hr resort classes. Both
diving and flying are very unforgiving of mistakes.

As far as Jim's idea, if the school was run that way and your good
at learing that way, it might be ok. I don't like the idea of here
are the books, pass the test and then we will show you the airplane.
I don't care how many times a student reads the book, the idea that
the rudder pedals are connected to the steering doesn't get through
till they are in the plane. Thats an example of 10 seconds in the
plane is worth more than months in the book. Weather on the other
hand is better from the book unless you live in an area that
demonstrates all the different varieties but that takes nearly a
year. You don't want to see a wall cloud up close and books have
nice pictures of them. If you do see one up close in a small plane,
I suspect it will be one of the last things you ever see. I think
Jim's school would do much better if his 14 days were preceeded by
2 days of classroom training and intro to the plane, then the book
study (for at least a month) and then the 14 days.

A 1/2 century ago there were a group of pilots that trained in about
two weeks. They were called Shimpu while training and depending
on how you look at it, things didn't go well for them. I think
that more time for training is better upto a point but I would be
interested in hear more from people that have trained in very short
times. I could see where getting your PPL in 10 days and then
flying with an instructor frequenly after that could be a good thing
for people flying 15 hrs a month.

-tim
http://web.abnormal.com

Tim Hogard wrote:

10 days is going to be 4 hrs of flying a day. That is going to be
very intense and I would worry about mental fatigue.


And that's just to attain the bare minimums required by the FARs. Not
many of us walk away with the ticket after just 40 hours.

- Slav Inger
- PP ASEL IA @ YIP

"Slav Inger" wrote in message
...
Tim Hogard wrote:

10 days is going to be 4 hrs of flying a day. That is going to be
very intense and I would worry about mental fatigue.


And that's just to attain the bare minimums required by the FARs. Not
many of us walk away with the ticket after just 40 hours.
With the 'accelerated' route, more people would probably get closer to this.
Normally there is a sometimes suprising amount of 'relearning' to do between
lessons that are seperated by some time.
This is really the question. The more normal route, does result in this
'relearning' having to occur, which may well have a long term reinforcing
effect on the learning as a whole. Combine this with the very small amount
of weather experience that might result (though this can also apply over
long training periods in some locations...), and the question is how the
pilot is likely to compare after a few months?.
It is worth remembering, that the accelerated route, was exactly the regime
used to train military pilots. However they were then not given the chance
to forget, being forced to use their skills immediately.
If the 'accelerated' pilot, does it, because they want to 'get a move on'
with flying, and keeps up regular flying immediately after the course, I'd
expect them to be fine.
However it'd be very interesting to see if after a few 'typical' months,
with only occasional flights, whether they remember as much (or more!), than
pilots who take the more normal route. Perhaps an expert in learning, might
be able to give an opinion as to which route is likely to give better 'long
term' memory?.

Best Wishes

Roger Hamlett wrote:

Perhaps an expert in learning, might
be able to give an opinion as to which route is likely to give better 'long
term' memory?.

There was a study done about 1970 on the differences in long-term learning
between those who "crammed" for exams versus those who prepared by studying
lessons throughout the semester. They found that both methods produced similar
scores at the time of the examination. Both groups were retested monthly,
IIRC.

After 1 month, the cramming group retained about 1/3 of the material, but
steady study group retained about 90% of the material. The group that crammed,
however, stabilized at this point, while the steady study group continued to
lose knowledge. After 6 months, both groups tested the same.

Actual use of the information, of course, makes a great deal of difference
in retention of knowledge, and the report on this study mentioned that.

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

Corky Scott wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 02:36:02 GMT, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

I can't believe that anyone can assimilate what it takes to be a safe pilot
with good judgment in ten days. At the very least, you need to experience a
variety of weather situations. Wouldn't touch this place with the proverbial
ten foot pole.

Bob Gardner

If you pass the written, the oral and practical to the satisfaction of
the examiner, what exactly is the difference between learning in 10
days or 10 months? Knowledge is knowledge. If it stays in you, what
does it matter how quickly you are taught it?

On the other hand, not everyone learns at exactly the same speed so
not everyone will be able to handle this type of instruction.

As to judgement, this seems a complicated subject. From what I've
read all my life about flying and what I've heard from pilots, poor
judgement can come from pilots whether they are freshly minted or have
thousands of hours of experience. It seems to depend on the
individual and his/her level of confidence, whether deserved or not.

Corky Scott

It is highly unlikely that anyone will retain this amount of knowledge when
exposed for such a short period of time. This is why a college degree takes
years not months – you could cram all the info into a 6 month course but you
wouldn’t get the same quality graduate. Would you want your brain surgeon to be
one who learned in a six month cram course? The longer exposure allows not only
more time to assimilate the material but more time to read about and discuss the
subject with others and gain insight from sources outside the teaching
institution. Many complex concepts need numerous exposures (often from different
points of view) over relatively long periods of time before they are fully
comprehended.

The FAA exams (written, oral, and practical) are not capable of verifying that
you are a good, safe pilot who has learned everything you need. They only are
meant to be checks that you meet some minimum requirements and possess some
minimum knowledge that indicates you are qualified to become a pilot. They rely
heavily on the fact that your CFI, who has known you and flown with you for a
considerable amount of time (hopefully over a period of time greater than a few
weeks), would only recommend you for the exam after he is convinced you have
acquired the skills, knowledge, and judgment to be a pilot.

Flying is a complex venture and is quite unforgiving. It is very foolish to
consider cost and time above safety. Almost every time I fly, I see other pilots
doing stupid things – I ask myself, what instructor taught them (or failed to
teach them) and how did they get recommended for the flight exam with this poor
judgment and flying ability. It is your life and your family, friends, and other
people’s lives at stake; why risk them to save a few bucks? If you’re on a tight
budget, forget the new TV or new car but spend the money and time to learn to fly
the best you possibly can. Not only will you be a safer pilot but you will enjoy
this wonderful adventure of flying a whole lot more.

I have been a CFI for 34 years and love flying and teaching. I am not cheap but
if you fly with me, you will not get recommended for the flight test until you
are a good, safe, professional acting pilot. When you take your friends or
family up the first time after getting your PPL, you will have the confidence and
professionalism that they deserve in a pilot.

Jerry
--
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-- Jerry Petrey, CFI
-- Senior Principal Systems Engineer - Navigation (GPS/INS), Guidance, & Control
-- Raytheon Missile Systems - Member Team Ada & Team Forth
-- NOTE: please remove NOSPAM in email address to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Gilan" wrote in message ...

I just started flying at a school that offers Private Pilot in 10 days. I
plan on taking a bit longer then 10 days but wondered how long the average
person takes to complete their PPL?

The other posters who mentioned mental fatigue (you know, what made
all them DH Comets crash in the '60s) and the value of down-time have
excellent points. I'm learning the slow way, and I believe the days
(sometimes weeks in our capricious NE weather) between each lesson are
vital, both for preparing for the next flight and allowing the brain
to focsu on other tasks.

It seems that a lot of 'learning' is done when you're not actively
concentrating on picking up a new skill; think of how easy it is to
remember the name of a song when you stop trying, or how effective
'sleeping on it' is when dealing with a problem. The brain does its
good work when you don't think it's doing anything.

I learned to drive with a week's intensive course. Idea was 9am Monday
was the first time you got behind the wheel and on 3pm Friday you'd
take your test. This is in the UK, I imagine the standards for a
driving test in the US are simliar. I ate, drank and slept driving for
5 days and passed. I'd spent the week learning at a frenetic pace but
the lessons of judgement never sank in until I'd discovered them all
over again on my own. Looking back it was only a couple of weeks later
that I was even remotely safe (or confident) behind the wheel.

You can't rush the accumulation of experience. 40 hours over 10 days
is not the same as 40 hours over a year. With an 'intensive' school
you don't give yourself enough time to analyse your mistakes before
moving on to making the next one. If I come close to busting airspace
now, or extend my crosswind so far I end up flying over the
incinerator smoke stacks and nearly flipping the plane, then I have a
week to let that sink in and I won't make that mistake again. If I was
up again the same afternoon I do not think the impact of my bad
decisions would have had a chance to sink in.

I think this really applies to primary training though. For additional
ratings where you're augmenting your skills, not learning an entirely
new skill (and flying is unlike anything we encounter in daily life),
then the intensive method may be more effective.

Jim's school sounds excellent. Immersion isn't the same as Intensive.

If you do go for it you should probably budget for followup lessons
with a CFI while you build confidence.

$0.02

Best & good luck,

Tim K.

Gilan wrote:

I just started flying at a school that offers Private Pilot in 10
days. I plan on taking a bit longer then 10 days but wondered how
long the average person takes to complete their PPL?

Private Pilot in 10 days
http://www.perfectplanes.com/index.html

For me, that doesn't sound good. I'm quite sure 10 days might be long enough
to show someone how to manage a some-kind-of level flight and maybe some
kind of landings, but I'm quite sure it in no way will be enough time to get
a somewhat useable pilot, especially when beginning from zero...

I was looking for a compressed PPL training for myself, and next week I will
begin my training which certainly will take around 7 intensive weeks. But
then, my instructor doesn't have from the beginning since I already have
flying experience and knowledge. I'm aware that even with my experience this
probably would be some hard weeks, and I really can't imagine that such a
10-day-pilot will be really be able to fly solo in a somewhat safe manner...

Benjamin

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message et...
I can't believe that anyone can assimilate what it takes to be a safe pilot
with good judgment in ten days. At the very least, you need to experience a
variety of weather situations. Wouldn't touch this place with the proverbial
ten foot pole.


I don't really have an opinion on whether or not this is a good
idea. I think a lot depends on what the pilot does after the 10 days
are up. Frankly, I think the logistics of offering a 10-day course is
fraught with difficulties. You need a properly motivated student and
perfect weather to name a few things.

Back in '01 I read about a student that completed the private
course in 10 days here in Arizona. If you're interested in the
details, check out :

http://makeashorterlink.com/?D28512935

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Jim Weir wrote
We fly three times a day between May and October. Four people in the airplane
at all times. The pilot, the instructor, and two students at the same level.
We land. We exchange the pilot for one of the students and we do the lesson
again. And another exchange.

Mornings breakfast together shooting the bull about yesterday. Noon lunch
talking about the morning flights. Night barbecues mulling over what has passed
that day...
Some day Gail and I will be able to afford to establish the Flight School For
Perfection. Until then...I respectfully disagree with your criticism of those
who are trying to achieve it.

With all due respect Jim...

If you ever do establish the sort of school you are talking about, it
will be a great thing. I would recommend it without reservation, and
I would even be happy to work there. Also, if you ever do establish
it, it will be a first.

There is nothing inherently wrong with instruction by full immersion,
and that's what you are suggesting. 14 days, 3 flight hours a day,
and another 10-12 hours of flight observation and ground instruction -
for someone who has already mastered the knowledge fundamentals, and
is really using the time for analysis and depth. Not everyone can
stand the pace, but many can - and I think telling those that can that
they need to drag their training out over months so they can be
'better pilots' is really a bunch of crap. What you are describing
can and should be done, but nobody is doing it.

However, the flight schools offering 10 or 14-day private tickets
really have nothing whatsoever to do with what you are proposing.
Their interest is in doing the minimum required for the rating.
They're not trying to achieve the Flight School For Perfection;
they're trying to collect the entire $5000 a student typically spends
to get a private ticket in days rather than months. It's about cash
flow, not training the superior pilot. All you have to do is look at
the experience level of the staff, the curriculum, and most of all the
support system - or rather the lack of it. There are no breakfast
briefings, no evening bull sessions over barbecue, and generally no
opportunity to sit in the back seat and observe other students making
your mistakes.

Michael

(John Galban) wrote in message . com...
If you're interested in the
details, check out :

http://makeashorterlink.com/?D28512935


That link seems to be acting weird. To find the article, go to

http://www.generalaviationnews.com

Choose the search feature and look on 3/30/2001 for "10 days".

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)