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#91
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Realistic Instrument Training using MSFS 2004
Mxsmanic wrote:
Tim writes: How would you know? It's so self-evident that I'm surprised you ask the question. Why would the controls of an airplane behave _differently_ just because of changing visibility outside the cockpit? It's the same atmosphere, the same control surfaces, the same airframe, the same powerplants ... obviously they will operate exactly the same in both VMC and IMC. One need not be a genius to figure this out, and certainly one need not be a pilot (although it appears that some pilots _haven't_ figured it out). You happen to be correct in the staqtement below, but the generalization you made prior was silly. Visual cues are different in IMC and VFR. There are no visual cues in IMC. The controls don't behave differently (unless the airframe is iced up), but you are neglecting the fact that the pilot is part of the control loop. In VMC the input to the pilot is far different, with considerably more information and lots of subtle cues than it is when in IMC. In IMC, the total input to the pilot is through a few instruments. Peripheral vision won't help you keep the wings level like it does in VMC. Because there is much less information available to the pilot, and his sense of balance can betray that information, it is far more difficult to maintain the control of an aircraft without the visual cues you get in VMC. This isn't about basic aircraft control, it is learning to correctly interpret the instruments to replace the visual cues. Furthermore, it takes a certain degree of concentration as well as practice to do it. Now add in turbulent air, having to navigate, having to set up for an approach, and talking with ATC. Unless you are proficient on interpreting the instruments, you won't be able to simultaneously keep control of the aircraft and also accomplish those peripheral tasks without relying on an autopilot. COnsider the average lifespan of a non-instrument rated pilot in an inadvertent IMC encounter. There were studies done where the average time from entry into IMC to a non-recoverable graveyard spin for non-instrument rated pilots come out to something like 180 seconds. I suspect when you are flying your MSFS you are relying more on the instruments than a real pilot does in VMC, because simply put you don't have the visual cues on a 2D screen that you get when sitting in a real cockpit. You are most likely compensating by using the instruments more than you would in a real airplane, probably without even realizing it. As a result, when you go IMC on the sim, it isn't as big a shift for you as it is for a pilot in a real airplane. Try this: cover up or turn off the instrument display while flying VMC on the computer. See how well you fare compared to when the instruments are there. Now try flying into a simulated cloud with the instruments still covered. Tell me how long you last before you hit the ground. |
#92
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Realistic Instrument Training using MSFS 2004
Ray Andraka writes:
The controls don't behave differently (unless the airframe is iced up), but you are neglecting the fact that the pilot is part of the control loop. No, the pilot is independent of both the controls and the instruments. He is the interface between the two domains, not part of them. In VMC the input to the pilot is far different, with considerably more information and lots of subtle cues than it is when in IMC. In IMC, the total input to the pilot is through a few instruments. Yes. Peripheral vision won't help you keep the wings level like it does in VMC. Because there is much less information available to the pilot, and his sense of balance can betray that information, it is far more difficult to maintain the control of an aircraft without the visual cues you get in VMC. It is far more difficult for the pilot to decide what control inputs to make. The control inputs themselves are the same. This isn't about basic aircraft control, it is learning to correctly interpret the instruments to replace the visual cues. Yes. I suspect when you are flying your MSFS you are relying more on the instruments than a real pilot does in VMC, because simply put you don't have the visual cues on a 2D screen that you get when sitting in a real cockpit. Agreed. You are most likely compensating by using the instruments more than you would in a real airplane, probably without even realizing it. Probably. As a result, when you go IMC on the sim, it isn't as big a shift for you as it is for a pilot in a real airplane. That depends on what the pilot of the real airplane is accustomed to. Some real pilots might well be instrument oriented, too, especially if they fly large aircraft (and particularly if they have learned to fly _only_ large aircraft, which is difficult in the U.S. but not out of the realm of possibility in other countries). Try this: cover up or turn off the instrument display while flying VMC on the computer. See how well you fare compared to when the instruments are there. Now try flying into a simulated cloud with the instruments still covered. Tell me how long you last before you hit the ground. Hmm ... interesting. I'll try it. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#93
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Realistic Instrument Training using MSFS 2004
There are no visual cues in IMC.
Like Hell there aren't! |
#94
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Realistic Instrument Training using MSFS 2004
Mxsmanic wrote:
snip You're confusing situational awareness and the gathering of information about it with the actual act of controlling the aircraft. You're confusing reality with a game. And worse, lecturing people based on your small world. I have no doubt you can fly the bejesus out of MSFS, but it is a different world - that of real flying in real airplanes. |
#95
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Realistic Instrument Training using MSFS 2004
Mxsmanic wrote:
snip You're confusing situational awareness and the gathering of information about it with the actual act of controlling the aircraft. You're confusing reality with a game. And worse, lecturing people based on your small world. I have no doubt you can fly the bejesus out of MSFS, but it is a different world - that of real flying in real airplanes. |
#96
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Realistic Instrument Training using MSFS 2004
Peter Dohm writes:
Like Hell there aren't! Which visual cues do you have in IMC? -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#97
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Realistic Instrument Training using MSFS 2004
Tim writes:
You're confusing reality with a game. I'm not talking about a game. And worse, lecturing people based on your small world. The more I read from some pilots here, the more I recognize how clueless some of them really are. I have no doubt you can fly the bejesus out of MSFS, but it is a different world - that of real flying in real airplanes. I'm less and less convinced of this. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#98
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Realistic Instrument Training using MSFS 2004
Mxsmanic,
There are no visual cues in IMC. Yeah, right. That's why it's called blind flying, right? -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
#99
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Realistic Instrument Training using MSFS 2004
Tim,
I have no doubt you can fly the bejesus out of MSFS You don't? Actually, based on his postings and his problems with reality, I highly doubt that he is as well versed with MSFS as he believes he is. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
#100
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Realistic Instrument Training using MSFS 2004
On Feb 15, 8:55 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
There are no visual cues in IMC. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. Oh, for God's sake, have you any sense at all of how wrong you are, of how ignorate you continue to demonstrate yourself to be? |
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