IDF-Apache firing missiles on 67yr old civilian in wheelchair- at Sabra mosque in Gaza...

In us.military.army Ragnar wrote:

Those guys NEVER
do the suicide dance - they convince other people to do it.

Little convincing is necessary when you've had your arms broken by Israeli
soldiers at age 14, seen your brother kidnapped, held, and tortured, watched
your sister shot by a sniper, and then had your house bulldozed.

I'm a fairly peacefuly person, but if a party did that to me and mine,
I'd pull out all of the stops to hurt he and his - I don't think many of us
would be much different.



--
.................................................. ............................

One hundred percent of the shots you don't take don't go in

-Wayne Gretzky

.................................................. ............................
http://www.memeticcandiru.com

In us.military.army Nicky wrote:
"Oelewapper" wrote :
Admittedly, I am not very familiar with this particular kind of issues in
military aviation, but how can it be "legal" for the Isra?li occupation
force to send out US-made Apaches, to launch a couple of missiles on a 67
year old crippled, half-blind and unarmed man, leaving a mosque in a
wheelchair after having said his dawn prayers ?? What about the pilot's
responsibility ??

And what about the countries that are supplying and financing those
governments that are responsible for these "evil" state-sponsored - yet
IMHO
completely unlawful - brutalities ??

I think that is not major problem in this case. The problem is that they
don't care if they kill any civilians around.

Personally, I believe it is deliberate. 2 Years ago, on the eve of a
peace with Hamas, Israel dropped a 500Lb bomb on an apartment building in
order to kill one man - One of the men they had been negotiating with.

Talk about using a grenade as a fly swatter.


--
.................................................. ............................

"After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the
state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine "

-Israeli founding father Ben Gurion

.................................................. ............................
http://www.memeticcandiru.com

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:43:18 +0900, "Ragnar" wrote:


wrote in message
news:st28c.4249$Ct5.564@edtnps89...
In us.military.army Ragnar wrote:

Yes, how dare the Israelis attack known terrorists!!!

How does Israel figure that a blind and deaf man in a wheelchair is a
threat
to a nuclear power?

Well, for starters the guy was a planner and mastermind. Those guys NEVER
do the suicide dance - they convince other people to do it.


Yassin was little more than a figurehead, and like the pope, probably
couldn't
dress himself without help, much less plan a terrorist operation.

A "figurehead" is still a viable target. Tell me that offing the Pope
wouldn't have consequences.

This is a fight between two religions. As always, no one will "win",
thousands of innocents are being killed, and neither side has
"clean hands". "Viable" targets are any member of the "other"
religion, barbarity reigns on both sides, and the US should not
be involved.

Al Minyard

In article _ql8c.3159$%w2.1454@clgrps13,
wrote:

In us.military.army Ragnar wrote:

Those guys NEVER
do the suicide dance - they convince other people to do it.

Little convincing is necessary when you've had your arms broken by
Israeli soldiers at age 14, seen your brother kidnapped, held, and
tortured, watched your sister shot by a sniper, and then had your
house bulldozed.

It's funny how you say "little convincing" when they have to send their
walking bombs through a fairly intense brainwashing session, then pay
the families of those bombers a large reward for having their sons and
daughters blow themselves up.

I'm a fairly peacefuly person, but if a party did that to me and mine,
I'd pull out all of the stops to hurt he and his - I don't think many of us
would be much different.

So instead of attacking the soldiers who had supposedly done all of the
stuff you list above, you'd strap on a bomb and blow up a bus, causing
the Israelis to come into the Gaza Strip and bulldoze your house?

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"Chad Irby" wrote:

Actually, the folks we backed were the guys the Taliban edged out to get
power after the USSR left. That's why the US didn't have any decent
connections in Afghanistan for 20 years.

That is beacuse US didn't have any interes for Afganistan when Rusians
left. US trained them, equipted and left them. And when Talibans turned
against their former allies US decided to kick them.
When they fight against Russians they are freedom fighters and when they
fight against US they are terrorists. Yeah right :-)

Funny how you can't seem to list "a lot" of them. We helped put some
dictators in, but I really can't think of any cases where we trained

Dictators which were (are) supported by US:
Pinochet (Chile)
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/...8/nsaebb8i.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/chile/stor...038615,00.html

Sadam (Iraq)
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/09.1...wk.us.iraq.htm

Musharaf (Pakistan)

Gen. José Alberto Medrano (El Salvador)
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Pr...News_1984.html
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Pr...News_1984.html

Somoza (Nicaragua)
http://home.sandiego.edu/~acase/nic.htm)

Julio Cesar Mendez Montenegro (Guatemala)
http://www.isp.nwu.edu/~fprefect/politics/timeline.html

You can see there are more then few terrorist and dictatros which were US
puppets. US was (is) supporting state terrorism mainly through their
intellegence agencies.

Yeah, we backed some bad folks. But the thing to remember is that the
USSR was backing *worse* ones during the same time period. We also had
a tendency to train people how to fight wars, while the USSR defaulted
to training them how to commit acts of terror.
Look at the list, and get back to us. All of the worst folks around
right now are old Soviet clients.

LOL
You are funny !
You argue whose methods were more dirty; US mehods or SSSR methods.
The truth is tht US was/is at least as much dirty as SSSR (or vice versa).

Especially when the USSR gives them to you and shows you how to use them.

Or Especially when US give you and helps you to produce chemical weapon and
shows You how do use it against Iranians ;-)

In article Qtl8c.3160$%w2.1051@clgrps13,
wrote:

Personally, I believe it is deliberate. 2 Years ago, on the eve of a
peace with Hamas, Israel dropped a 500Lb bomb on an apartment building in
order to kill one man - One of the men they had been negotiating with.

Talk about using a grenade as a fly swatter.

....a tactic that works, saving both Israeli and Palestinian lives:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110004855

"In the early months of the intifada, this macho pretense was sustained
by the Israeli government's tacit decision not to target terrorist
ringleaders, for fear such attacks would inspire massive retaliation.
Yassin and his closest associates considered themselves immune from
Israeli reprisals and operated in the open. What followed was the
bloodiest terrorist onslaught in Israeli history, climaxing in a
massacre at Netanya in March 2002. After that, Israel invaded the West
Bank and began to target terrorist leaders more aggressively.

The results, in terms of lives saved, were dramatic. In 2003, the number
of Israeli terrorist fatalities declined by more than 50% from the
previous year, to 213 from 451. The overall number of attacks also
declined, to 3,823 in 2003 from 5,301 in 2002, a drop of 30%. In the
spring of 2003, Israel stepped up its campaign of targeted
assassinations, including a failed attempt on Yassin's deputy, Abdel
Aziz Rantisi. Wise heads said Israel had done nothing except incite the
Palestinians to greater violence. Instead, Hamas and other Islamic
terrorist groups agreed unilaterally to a cease-fire.

In this context, it bears notice that between 2002 and 2003 the number
of Palestinian fatalities also declined significantly, from 1,000 to
about 700. The reason here is obvious: As the leaders of Palestinian
terror groups were picked off and their operations were disrupted, they
were unable to carry out the kind of frequent, large-scale attacks that
had provoked Israel's large-scale reprisals. Terrorism is a top-down
business, not vice versa. Targeted assassinations not only got rid of
the most guilty but diminished the risk of open combat between Israeli
soldiers and Palestinian foot soldiers."

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"Nicky" wrote in message
...
"Chad Irby" wrote:

Actually, the folks we backed were the guys the Taliban edged out to get
power after the USSR left. That's why the US didn't have any decent
connections in Afghanistan for 20 years.

That is beacuse US didn't have any interes for Afganistan when Rusians
left. US trained them, equipted and left them. And when Talibans turned
against their former allies US decided to kick them.
When they fight against Russians they are freedom fighters and when they
fight against US they are terrorists. Yeah right :-)


The Taliban didnt EXIST when the Soviets were around. It emerged as a
movement in 1994, several years after the USSR had ceased to exist
let alone occupy Afghanistan.

Keith

In article ,
"Nicky" wrote:

"Chad Irby" wrote:

Actually, the folks we backed were the guys the Taliban edged out to get
power after the USSR left. That's why the US didn't have any decent
connections in Afghanistan for 20 years.

That is beacuse US didn't have any interes for Afganistan when Rusians
left. US trained them, equipted and left them. And when Talibans turned
against their former allies US decided to kick them.
When they fight against Russians they are freedom fighters and when they
fight against US they are terrorists. Yeah right :-)

Funny how you can't seem to list "a lot" of them. We helped put some
dictators in, but I really can't think of any cases where we trained

Dictators which were (are) supported by US:
Pinochet (Chile)
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/...8/nsaebb8i.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/chile/stor...038615,00.html

The situation in Chile wasn't so much supporting Pinochet as opposing
Allende, and our efforts there were pretty thin. And after three years,
his own military tossed Allende out on his ear, because his government
was *worse* than the dictator he beat.

Overall, one of the worst self-inflicted losses of Communism.

Sadam (Iraq)
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/09.1...wk.us.iraq.htm

A quote from that piece: "America did not put Saddam in power."

Musharaf (Pakistan)

Another Soviet boy, who only started paying attention to the US after
the USSR went broke.

Gen. José Alberto Medrano (El Salvador)
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Pr...News_1984.html

Supported, but only because of the Soviet and Cuban efforts. Not even
that much, on our side.

Somoza (Nicaragua)
http://home.sandiego.edu/~acase/nic.htm)

Yep, the Somoza family had been our guy for a long time, until tossed
out by (once again) a Cuban-backed group.

Are you seeing the pattern yet?

Julio Cesar Mendez Montenegro (Guatemala)
http://www.isp.nwu.edu/~fprefect/politics/timeline.html

You can see there are more then few terrorist and dictatros which were US
puppets.

....versus about a hundred that were (and are) Soviet ones. Africa alone
beats that list by a factor of ten or so, and the aftereffects of those
moves are still killing people by the thousands.

You also need to understand that giving someone support versus Communism
does not make them a "puppet," which implies that we controlled them
completely. Mostly, our efforts around the world ended up as an
advisory deal, versus the Soviet model of "do as we say."


US was (is) supporting state terrorism mainly through their
intellegence agencies.

Pretty minor, overall.

Yeah, we backed some bad folks. But the thing to remember is that the
USSR was backing *worse* ones during the same time period. We also had
a tendency to train people how to fight wars, while the USSR defaulted
to training them how to commit acts of terror.
Look at the list, and get back to us. All of the worst folks around
right now are old Soviet clients.

LOL
You are funny !
You argue whose methods were more dirty; US mehods or SSSR methods.

The USSR, by a huge amount.

The truth is tht US was/is at least as much dirty as SSSR (or vice versa).

I'm sorry, but you're out of your mind. Or have you never read any
history over the last five decades or so? Stalin killed more of his
*own* people than were killed in all of the wars from 1900 to 2004.

Especially when the USSR gives them to you and shows you how to use them.

Or Especially when US give you and helps you to produce chemical weapon and
shows You how do use it against Iranians ;-)

Except that the people who sold that gear to them were the Soviets, the
French, and the Germans. And the French even sold them a nuclear
reactor to make bombs with.

The US never sold the Iraqis chemical *or* biological weapons, nor the
gear to use it.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

Does anyone seriously believe that if the state of Israel was destroyed
the Palestinians would not be in a savage civil war within a very short
time?

The only factor preventing that is the existence of a common enemy; and
even given that, the alliances are still very fragile.

Dave

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 01:06:35 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

In article ,
K. A. Cannon wrote:

What ever happened to peaceful civil disobedience protests?
What the **** would Israel do if the Palestinians ever get a Martin
Luther King?

They'd probably get to bury him after Hamas kills him.


Now yes-- but if one had appeared around hte first Intifada, and not
been killed by friend Arafat...well things would have been completely
different.
The isreali Palestinian conflict seems to have one main theme--
whenever one side is seriouly ready to make a deal, the other decides
it doesnt' want to. It's been more obvious on the Palestinian side,
but the Isreali's have also missed many chances to bolster the
moderates (back when such a thing existed).

I'm more interested in the big middle finger this seems to have sent
the US way-- Sharon really seems intent on proving that he is not
beholden in any way shape or form to U.S. preassure.