Procedure turn in Strong X-wind

OK, I'm flying my local VOR-A which calls for an outbound heading of
252, then I'm suppoosed to turn 45 deg to 207 to begin the PT. But
there is a STRONG x-wind and I am already crabbed to about 215 to hold
the 252 outbound course. I assume I turn to something not quite
approaching 170 (45 deg from 215), just something inbetween in order
to sort of track 45 deg off the outbound course and fly a bit longer
than 1 min so I don't get blown back through the inbound course when I
do the turn back toward the inbound course. It just seems weird to be
flying at almost 90 deg from the outbound course. Any opinions on
this?

"smackey" wrote in message
m...
OK, I'm flying my local VOR-A which calls for an outbound heading of
252, then I'm suppoosed to turn 45 deg to 207 to begin the PT. But
there is a STRONG x-wind and I am already crabbed to about 215 to hold
the 252 outbound course. I assume I turn to something not quite
approaching 170 (45 deg from 215), just something inbetween in order
to sort of track 45 deg off the outbound course and fly a bit longer
than 1 min so I don't get blown back through the inbound course when I
do the turn back toward the inbound course. It just seems weird to be
flying at almost 90 deg from the outbound course. Any opinions on
this?

A barbed procedure turn gives you the flexibility to do as you please in
terms of performing the course reversal. You are only required to make the
turn on the side of the approach course as depicted, and remain within the
specified distance from the fix--usually 10nm. That said, you can
compensate for crosswinds by adjusting your procedure turn heading and time.
If you are turning into the wind on the PT, extend the leg. A gps ground
track is handy for helping to make these decisions.

(smackey) wrote:
OK, I'm flying my local VOR-A which calls for an outbound heading of
252, then I'm suppoosed to turn 45 deg to 207 to begin the PT. But
there is a STRONG x-wind and I am already crabbed to about 215 to hold
the 252 outbound course.

That's a heck of a cross-wind correction: 37 degrees. Are you really
sure it took that much? If you're doing 90 KTAS, 37 degrees would imply
a 54 kt crosswind component, which seems unlikely.

I assume I turn to something not quite
approaching 170 (45 deg from 215), just something inbetween in order
to sort of track 45 deg off the outbound course and fly a bit longer
than 1 min so I don't get blown back through the inbound course when I
do the turn back toward the inbound course. It just seems weird to be
flying at almost 90 deg from the outbound course. Any opinions on
this?

In a really strong crosswind, a lot of the geometry of the PT gets blown
out of whack. For example, with the 37 degree WCA above, your outbound
speed is only 72 kts, so your 1-minute outbound leg doesn't get you as
far out as you normally would be. If you added in another 45 degrees,
you'd be heading 82 degrees away from the FAC and only making 12 kts
outbound (assuming a direct crosswind). Clearly this makes no sense.

What I would do in a situation like that is go for positive course
guidance on the outbound leg. Assuming the IAF/FAF is the VOR (like the
POU VOR-A,
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/00286VGA.PDF), instead
of dead-reckoning your way through the PT, reset the OBS and track a
course 30 degrees from the FAC on the protected side. Essentially
you're flying the PT as a teardrop hold entry. I would track outbound
for 3-4 minutes; this is longer than your usual PT, but you want to give
yourself a bit of extra time to get setup on the inbound course. If
you've got any way of measuring your distance from the VOR (DME, or even
a VFR GPS), use it.

On the inbound turn, don't be a slave to making standard-rate turns. If
the CDI is coming in way faster than you expected, speed up the turn.
The alternative is blowing through the FAC and if you do that in a
strong crosswind, you may never manage to claw your way back in time.

A moving map GPS makes this soooo much easier :-)

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:14:50 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

On the inbound turn, don't be a slave to making standard-rate turns. If
the CDI is coming in way faster than you expected, speed up the turn.
The alternative is blowing through the FAC and if you do that in a
strong crosswind, you may never manage to claw your way back in time.


Yeah. Steep turns in the clouds is just what an inexperienced IFR
pilot needs.

I'll take going across the course anytime. There's no way a wind is
going to blow an aircraft so far across course that it will be a
serious problem.

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:14:50 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

On the inbound turn, don't be a slave to making standard-rate turns. If
the CDI is coming in way faster than you expected, speed up the turn.
The alternative is blowing through the FAC and if you do that in a
strong crosswind, you may never manage to claw your way back in time.


Yeah. Steep turns in the clouds is just what an inexperienced IFR
pilot needs.

I'll take going across the course anytime. There's no way a wind is
going to blow an aircraft so far across course that it will be a
serious problem.

I wasn't suggesting 45 degree bank angles, but going to 1.5 standard
rate isn't going to hurt anybody.

Keep in mind that if your outbound heading is 60 degrees off the FAC to
the left and your inbound heading needs to be 30 degrees off in the
other direction, you're making 270 degrees of heading change, which
takes a minute and a half at standard rate.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:28:11 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

I wasn't suggesting 45 degree bank angles, but going to 1.5 standard
rate isn't going to hurt anybody.

Keep in mind that if your outbound heading is 60 degrees off the FAC to
the left and your inbound heading needs to be 30 degrees off in the
other direction, you're making 270 degrees of heading change, which
takes a minute and a half at standard rate.


Well, you didn't mention limits. But maybe 1.5 standard rate won't do
it either. Then what? Twice standard rate?

In my opinion, going across the course is vastly preferable to
steepening up a turn in the clouds, especially when you don't practice
it a lot, and most pilots don't.

On 22 Nov 2004 22:43:11 -0800, (smackey) wrote:

It just seems weird to be
flying at almost 90 deg from the outbound course.

Keep in mind that the PT barb only tells you which side of the course
line to make the reversal and =only one= of a number of ways to do it.
It does not =regulate= the way you make your procedure turn.

For example, there are pilots who do 90/270 procedure turns or the
equivalent of a teardrop hold entry all the time, even in calm
conditions.

If you prefer the 45/180/45° method but the winds require major
adjustment, go a head and do what you need to make the reversal on the
protected side of the course line.

Mark Kolber
APA/Denver, Colorado
www.midlifeflight.com
======================
email? Remove ".no.spam"

wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:14:50 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:


On the inbound turn, don't be a slave to making standard-rate turns. If
the CDI is coming in way faster than you expected, speed up the turn.
The alternative is blowing through the FAC and if you do that in a
strong crosswind, you may never manage to claw your way back in time.



Yeah. Steep turns in the clouds is just what an inexperienced IFR
pilot needs.

At most light plane speeds, a standard rate turn requires a bank of a
fair bit less than 30 degrees. So even increasing bank to 30 degrees
makes a lot of difference and this is hardly a steep turn. Roy's advice
is sound and I often increase or decrease from standard rate as
required. Any pilot who can't fly a 30 degree bank in the clouds, has
no business being in the clouds without an instructor.


Matt

wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:28:11 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:


I wasn't suggesting 45 degree bank angles, but going to 1.5 standard
rate isn't going to hurt anybody.

Keep in mind that if your outbound heading is 60 degrees off the FAC to
the left and your inbound heading needs to be 30 degrees off in the
other direction, you're making 270 degrees of heading change, which
takes a minute and a half at standard rate.



Well, you didn't mention limits. But maybe 1.5 standard rate won't do
it either. Then what? Twice standard rate?

Whatever you are comfortable with. I have no problem going to 40
degrees in the clouds and routinely practice steep turns under the hood
every few months. I actually fly better steep turns under the hood than
I do visually. Go figure...


In my opinion, going across the course is vastly preferable to
steepening up a turn in the clouds, especially when you don't practice
it a lot, and most pilots don't.

It depends on how steep. To me, it is very sloppy instrument flying to
blow across a course by half a mile because I'm afraid to increase bank
from 15 degrees to 30.


Matt

Keep in mind you can turn around any way you want as long
as you stay inside the 10 mile limit and on the barb side of
the course. Don't get too preocuppied with the exact headings
on the barb. If the wind was that high I think I'd just keep the left
turn going around keeping the nose into the wind until I got
back on the inbound course .. most likely with a heading around
85 to 90 degrees still into the wind.


"smackey" wrote in message
m...
OK, I'm flying my local VOR-A which calls for an outbound heading of
252, then I'm suppoosed to turn 45 deg to 207 to begin the PT. But
there is a STRONG x-wind and I am already crabbed to about 215 to hold
the 252 outbound course. I assume I turn to something not quite
approaching 170 (45 deg from 215), just something inbetween in order
to sort of track 45 deg off the outbound course and fly a bit longer
than 1 min so I don't get blown back through the inbound course when I
do the turn back toward the inbound course. It just seems weird to be
flying at almost 90 deg from the outbound course. Any opinions on
this?