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"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Sure. What did you indoctrinate your kids into?

Nothing. They can make their own choices whenever they wish. I give them all
the answers I can and find out the ones I can't. They are very curious kids
and I have always been a pretty curious and scientifically oriented person.
And I know how to say "I don't know." It has been a learning experience for
all of us. And their teachers and all their friends mothers have always
commented on how well behaved they are. I guess my athiestic morals can't be
all that bad.



mike regish
(and that IS my real name)

BTW, I don't really give a rats ass what grade you give me.

Really? Then why does it bother you so much?

I'm curious as to what makes you think it bothers me.

I'll give you a B+ on
grammar, but you need to add an apostrophe to rat's.

The mark of the desperately wrong. Pointing out typos.

"Matt Barrow" wrote:
in message ...
Both are correct. Populations of organisms "learn" the right way to
survive
in their environments or they perish.

That's nice, but that's not "right from wrong" except on the most
extreme
fringe. We're talking morality (self preservation) and ethics (conduct
towards others) which are intellectual pursuits, not biological
(though they
are linked).

What's the difference? They are both behaviors. Behavior in all
animals is a combination of instinct and learning. It's all biological.

The ability to do this is coded into
their genes. The coding changes over time due to a combination of
mutation
and natural selection, i.e., by evolution.

Animals have instincts that have developed from evolution. Humans have
reason and, from that, develop principles.

Humans have instincts; other animals can reason. It's only a matter of
degree. "Principles" is a fancy name for social behavior useful to the
species.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

"Matt Whiting" wrote:

OK, can you point out the passage that says you should kill Jews? I
read the above twice and just don't see it.

"But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews' synagogues and
forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's
name? They will still keep doing it in secret."

What do you suppose Luther is implying should be done about those nasty
Jews, if burning down their synagogues wasn't enough?

And just in case that lovely sentiment doesn't sufficiently impress you
that genocide marks many pages in Christian history, try this one:

(The following excerpt is from Las Casas' book _A Short Account Of The
Destruction Of the Indies_, Penguin Books, Edited and Translated by
Nigel Griffin.)

"They forced their way into native settlements, slaughtering everyone
they found there, including small children, old men, pregnant women, and
even women who had just given birth. ...They spared no one, erecting
especially wide gibbets on which they could string their victims up with
their feet just off the ground and then burn them alive thirteen at a
time, in honor of our Savior and the twelve Apostles, or tie dry straw
to their bodies and set fire to it. Some they chose to keep alive and
simply cut their wrists, leaving their hands dangling, saying to them:
'Take this letter' -- meaning that their sorry condition would as a
warning to those hiding in the hills...."

There's lots, lots more, if you care to look.

"Matt Whiting" wrote:
I'm no supporter of the Catholic church, so I won't argue with you
there. The Catholic church doesn't follow the Bible in many ways and
much of what they believe in and do is simply not supported by
scripture and often outright condemned.

I know most Catholics would disagree, but I don't consider Catholicism
to be Christianity as they tend to elevate Mary to a level equal to or
even higher than Christ.

In discussions like this it usually isn't long before the retreating
Christian pulls out the old "no true Scotsman" argument.

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:03:09 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
So very true.

The world is overrunning with immoral religious types.

Sort of, but the proper term is "ethics" (pertaining to others), not
"morality" (pertaining to self).

My dictionary doesn't quite see the distinction here.

Moral: Relating tot he principles or right and wrong in behavior.
conforming to a standard. Operating on one's conscience or *ethical*
judgment.

"Moral" implies conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted
notions of right and wrong;

"Ethical" may suggest the involvement of more difficult or subtle
questions of rightness, fairness, or equity.

Ethical: of or relating to ethics. Involving or expressing moral
approval or disapproval.

Mores: The fixed morally binding customs of a particular group.

In essence, what is considered moral varies from group to group, but
those moral values tend to be fixed within the groups.
I would say that ethics is the performance to a moral standard.

For example. When doing business in many countries it is normal and
considered ethical to help out the favorite causes of the officials to
speed up or get things done (IE greasing the palms). In other areas
of the world such conduct is not considered unethical and even
criminal.

I once attended a seminar where those present were told that if they
accepted assignments in some areas of the world they would be expected
to conduct themselves according to the local ethics. If they had a
problem with that then they should either request they not be assigned
overseas assignments, or seek employment elsewhere. You should not go
into another country and expect your ethics to be considered normal.
Doing so can bring about a great deal of strife and even personal
discomfort.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

mike regish wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Sure. What did you indoctrinate your kids into?


Nothing. They can make their own choices whenever they wish. I give them all
the answers I can and find out the ones I can't. They are very curious kids
and I have always been a pretty curious and scientifically oriented person.
And I know how to say "I don't know." It has been a learning experience for
all of us. And their teachers and all their friends mothers have always
commented on how well behaved they are. I guess my athiestic morals can't be
all that bad.

So you indoctrinate them into the religion of "free thinking",
philosophy, etc. I was just curious.


mike regish
(and that IS my real name)

BTW, I don't really give a rats ass what grade you give me.

Really? Then why does it bother you so much?


I'm curious as to what makes you think it bothers me.

Because you bothered to reply to it.


I'll give you a B+ on

grammar, but you need to add an apostrophe to rat's.


The mark of the desperately wrong. Pointing out typos.

The mark of the arrogantly wrong.


Matt

wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:05:20 -0500, Matt Whiting
wrote:


wrote:


On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:16:34 -0500, Matt Whiting
wrote:



And there is a recent christian culture that gassed and burned 6
million human beings.

I'm not sure what a christian culture is, but a Christian culture didn't
do that. It was a Christian culture that came to the defense of the Jews.



You need to pick up a good history book and spend a little time with
it.

Hardly. Show me one shred of evidence that says Hitler was a bona fide
Christian. Show me one shred of evidence that says Christianity
supports genocide of Jews.


Matt





Take your pick.




“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”

( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf
Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. )

“The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in
his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially
of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word
be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and
their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the
Lord's creation, the divine will.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner
Books, 1999, p. 562. )

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of
the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am
fighting for the work of the Lord.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner
Books, 1999, p. 65. )

“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded
only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and
summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest
not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian
and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at
last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the
Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight
against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with
deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact
that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As
a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have
the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have
the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same
catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world
some two thousand years ago — a civilization which was driven to its
ruin through this same Jewish people.

“Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new
German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany
collapses today, who is there to come after us? German blood upon this
earth is on the way to gradual exhaustion unless we pull ourselves
together and make ourselves free!

“And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting
rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I
have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see
them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they
have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in
the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into
their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a
very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord
two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor
people are plundered and exploited.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Munich, April 12, 1922; from
Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August
1939, Vol. 1, New York: Oxford University Press, 1942, pp. 19-20. )

“For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last
newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising
pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this
one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor
patriots: ‘Lord, make us free!’ is transformed in the brain of the
smallest boy into the burning plea: ‘Almighty God, bless our arms when
the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we
be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!’”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner
Books, 1999, pp. 632-633. )

“I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a
pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the
natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be
deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings
of Providence.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on July 5, 1944; from Charles
Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton
Mifflin Company, 1989, p. 208. )

“I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a
warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded
by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and
called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the
greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior. . .

“As a human being it is my duty to see to it that humanity will not
suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did that old civilization two
thousand years ago, a civilization which was driven to its ruin by the
Jews. . . I am convinced that I am really a devil and not a Christian
if I do not feel compassion and do not wage war, as Christ did two
thousand years ago, against those who are steeling and exploiting
these poverty-stricken people.

“Two thousand years ago a man was similarly denounced by this
particular race which today denounces and blasphememes all over the
place. . . That man was dragged before a court and they said: he is
arousing the people! So he, too, was an agitator!”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on April 12, 1922; from Charles
Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton
Mifflin Company, 1989, pp. 261-262. )

Claiming something doesn't make it so. The Bible says that by their
works you will know them. Hitler's works clearly weren't Christian,
therefore he wasn't. I can claim to be the President of the United
States, but that doesn't make it so.


Matt

Dan Luke wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote:

I'm no supporter of the Catholic church, so I won't argue with you
there. The Catholic church doesn't follow the Bible in many ways and
much of what they believe in and do is simply not supported by
scripture and often outright condemned.

I know most Catholics would disagree, but I don't consider Catholicism
to be Christianity as they tend to elevate Mary to a level equal to or
even higher than Christ.


In discussions like this it usually isn't long before the retreating
Christian pulls out the old "no true Scotsman" argument.

You can believe whatever you want. But Baptists haven't agreed with
Catholic views for a lot longer than I've been around.


Matt

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 02:40:15 GMT, wrote:

And there is a recent christian culture that gassed and burned 6
million human beings.

I'm not sure what a christian culture is, but a Christian culture didn't
do that. It was a Christian culture that came to the defense of the Jews.



You need to pick up a good history book and spend a little time with
it.

Hardly. Show me one shred of evidence that says Hitler was a bona fide
Christian. Show me one shred of evidence that says Christianity
supports genocide of Jews.


Matt

*** Snip of 11 sentences or paragraphs from Hitlers writings or
speeches confirming his belief in God***

Matt says:
Claiming something doesn't make it so. The Bible says that by their
works you will know them. Hitler's works clearly weren't Christian,
therefore he wasn't. I can claim to be the President of the United
States, but that doesn't make it so.

Matt this is pathetic. It's disingenuous to argue that recorded
authenticated evidence doesn't count just because you don't think it
should.

You asked the man to show you one shred of evidence. He did far more
than requested, he showed you a whole bundle, which by the way must
have taken some time to research and record. From his (Hitler's)
writings, it's obvious he professed to be a Christian. It doesn't
matter that you think he did not behave as a Christian, you have the
evidence you asked for.

History is replete with people who professed to be Christians and/or
believers in God, but behaved like apostles of evil. How they behaved
does not alter the fact that they thought of themselves as members of
a religion, believers in God.

Sure, you can say (paraphrasing): "well they did evil so obviously
they weren't true believers because true believers would not do evil".
But how do you know this? Is God omniscient or not? If He/She/It is,
then the centuries of slaughter in God's name, which continue to this
day, have been explicitly condoned by this holy being. But wait, the
sixth Commandment is: "Thou shalt not kill". Uh oh, how does that
work?

Corky (Oooohhh too much information!!!) Scott

PS, double Uh oh:
Claiming something doesn't make it so. The Bible says that by their
works you will know them. Hitler's works clearly weren't Christian,
therefore he wasn't. I can claim to be the President of the United
States, but that doesn't make it so.

Speaking of the president, does he profess to believe in God? Ok, ha
ha, retorical question we all know he REALLY believes in God, or,
going with your argument, says he does. But did he not sign the death
warrants for many people on death row in Texas? Did he not send
thousands of troops into harms way which resulted in hundreds of
thousands of deaths. If he did, then he was directly responsible for
their deaths. Is this ok? A little justifiable killing here and
there for protection's sake?

"Matt Whiting" wrote:

"No true Scotsman..."