ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight

Maybe, how much time was available? If the AA plane was in
DFW approach airspace, it was maybe 5-6 minutes out, how
long would clearing all the other traffic take?

On a busy day at Wichita, there might be three other
aircraft, at DFW, it would be dozens. How long does it
take?
BTHOOM, but it does take some measurable time.
ATC has limitations, they can be UNABLE just as pilots can
be unable. If the AA plane was over Ardmore, then DFW had
plenty of time, if the AA plane was close-in, there would
not be time to clear the space.

A PIC request/demand does not alter time.



"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
nk.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| ...
|
| Only after the other traffic was out of the way. IF
[the
| unknown none of us know] the plane was a 5 minute out
| straight in to 17 and it would take 11 minutes to clear
all
| the other airplanes out of the way, a hold would be
| required.
|
| What was the traffic count and where was each airplane,
| which way do you turn them so they don't collide with
the
| airplane in distress or each other, what traffic was at
the
| other airports on the Dallas/Ft. Worth area and how
would it
| be effected?
|
| So far, only the President of the United States gets
| airspace that clear, all the time.
|
|
| The other traffic would be out of the way by the time the
plane arrived..
|
|

It does seem that you had "time" for you and ATC to manage.
I don't know just where the TUL-DFW emergency began, do you.
It was in the DFW area as far as I recall from the other
posts, ATC offered other airports and the pilot declined
[which raises the question in my mind of just how serious
the pilot was treating his emergency] and ATC did get him
safely on the ground.

I am an absolutist on the subject of PIC rights, as I am
about gun-rights, and property rights. But I am also aware
that even Doctor Welby [or House] can't save everybody.
The reason for the TFR may have been worries about terrorism
and threats to the President, but 30 NM does give time for
ATC emergencies too.

My point is that pilot's emergency authority allows
deviations as needed [and is a get out of jail free] but
some request can be done within the available time and some
can't. I have never seen or heard an accurate or
knowledgeable report on aviation, guns, or other technical
topics on the television. Just the other day on the History
Channel, the Gunny said that the B36 used turboprop engines.

Is it better for ATC to give the pilot what he wants or what
he needs?



"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| Only after the other traffic was out of the way. IF
[the
| unknown none of us know] the plane was a 5 minute out
| straight in to 17 and it would take 11 minutes to clear
all
| the other airplanes out of the way, a hold would be
| required.
|
|
| They don't have to have a sterile environment like they do
for Air Force
| One. As you say, no aircraft can be within 30 miles of
the airport when
| Air Force One is approaching or departing.
|
| This is entirely different.
|
| When I was flying the line I had only one genuine
emergency and it was
| on a clear day at ORD. We had just been shipped over to
approach from
| center. We told approach we needed 14R. They already
knew the nature
| of our emergency, having been briefed by the center. Once
they were
| directly aware of our need for 14R they gave us a new
frequency.
|
| Turns out we were the only flight on that frequency. We
were about 25
| miles out and pointed directly to 14R. We never heard
about how they
| cleared the way for us (we were too busy to care) but it
was like we
| owned the airport.
|
| As we got fairly close in we could see aircraft using 14L,
but 14R was
| our's.
|
| DFW has a better layout than ORD and the proper handling
of a genuine
| emergency could have been handled as well as, or better,
than the
| handling at ORD I described.
|
| My emergency was before the PATCO strike, for whatever
that may be worth.
|
| Another situation on my airline. A friend of mine had two
engines
| failed enroute in a 727. This is a very rare event, but
it is a trained
| maneuver. Once the grear is down and final landing flaps
(flaps 5 in
| this case) are selected there is no going around. The
emergency started
| about 80 miles out from LAX inbound. Everything was goind
good until
| they were handed off to the tower and they heard the tower
still using
| the runway they were assigned. The captain told them,
loud and clear,
| that the aircraft was incapable of going around and if
they didn't stop
| using the runway right now, they were landing along side
of whatever
| traffic they might be foolish enough to have on the
runway.
|
| That got it cleared up.
|
| The AAL guy absolutely should have done about the same
thing.

Jim Macklin wrote:


Is it better for ATC to give the pilot what he wants or what
he needs?

What he states he needs. I don't want anyone on the ground deciding
that for me, except for maintenance engineering when there is time.

Jim Macklin wrote:

If you were the pilot with the low fuel and had declared an
emergency, would you want a downwind straight in or an
expedited downwind and base/final if both took the same
time? What if the straight in takes 30 seconds longer while
traffic clear your flight path?

Have all pilots turned blonde?

I want the runway I have decided is best for me. If I could have landed
30 seconds sooner on some other runway let them show me that at the hearing.

I would like to think I would have had it right.

I'm glad you're pilot's certificate made you omnipotent, I
always suggested alternate course of action and asked "why?"

I read on another post that the plane was 81 miles out, if
so, then ATC had the time. But what are the facts, where
was the plane, when was an emergency declared, when was the
runway requested?
I'm am not defending ATC or the pilot, the facts should
speak. But most of what I've seen has been conjecture based
on TV reports that have been edited for impact and TV
commercial space.


"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
|
| Is it better for ATC to give the pilot what he wants or
what
| he needs?
|
| What he states he needs. I don't want anyone on the
ground deciding
| that for me, except for maintenance engineering when there
is time.

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

From a pilot's seat for many years, at such little airports
as DFW, ATL, DEN,STL, ORD, etc.

Many hours in the cab and TRACON as a visitor, watching
airports "turn around."

Being given ATC priority during my emergencies and seeing
other pilots get priority handling.


So no ATC experience, just as I thought. What was the purpose of the
airport's "turn around" that you watched?

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

And if the time required to move that traffic is longer than
the time required for the aircraft in distress to fly
downwind and land, which is the "best" solution?


Irrelevant. The time required to move that traffic was less than the time
required for the aircraft in distress to fly downwind and land.

Are you related to Norm Melick?

During my one in-air emergency (partial engine failure in a 172), I did
squawk 7700 as I called a radar facility, and it helped. The controller
then gave me a squawk code. There wasn't going to be any handoff, and I
think changing codes stopped alarms at his position and many others.

David

Mitty wrote:
On 2/23/2007 6:21 PM, Roy Smith wrote the following:

If you've already told the controller you have an emergency, squawking
7700 doesn't add anything to the situation. The 7700 stuff is for
when you're out of radio contact.

Au contraire. With a 7700 squawk then if the emergency situation wasn't
mentioned in the handoff (which it possibly wasn't) then the next
controller would still have known something was seriously wrong.

(Now possibly if AA had squawked 7700 he would have been asked to switch
off that code at some point, but we don't even know from the video
whether he tried it.)

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

No emergency turn arounds, but I did see that it takes some
time. Just how long it would take would depend on the
location and number of aircraft.


Did you ask any questions during your visits? Did you understand anything
you heard or observed? Why did you assume it would be necessary to "turn
the airport around" to deal with the emergency under discussion?

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

If you were the pilot with the low fuel and had declared an
emergency, would you want a downwind straight in or an
expedited downwind and base/final if both took the same
time? What if the straight in takes 30 seconds longer while
traffic clear your flight path?


The straight-in is always quicker.



Have all pilots turned blonde?


You just don't get it. This is not a matter of opinion. You're simply
incorrect.