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Did the Germans have the Norden bombsight?



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 28th 04, 11:00 AM
Cub Driver
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Default Did the Germans have the Norden bombsight?


Reading what appears to be a solid history of FDR and espionage.
Author makes the flat statement that in 1940 someone in the Norden
plant smuggled out the plans, which went to Germany. From these, the
Germans "developed their own bombsight," presumably based on the
Norden. The author points out the irony that at this point we still
wouldn't give Britain the bombsight (we did later).

Any truth to this? What part if any of the Norden sight did the
Germans utilize?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

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  #2  
Old April 28th 04, 12:11 PM
Dave Eadsforth
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In article , Cub Driver
writes

Reading what appears to be a solid history of FDR and espionage.
Author makes the flat statement that in 1940 someone in the Norden
plant smuggled out the plans, which went to Germany. From these, the
Germans "developed their own bombsight," presumably based on the
Norden. The author points out the irony that at this point we still
wouldn't give Britain the bombsight (we did later).

Any truth to this? What part if any of the Norden sight did the
Germans utilize?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)


Probably true - I seem to recall reading about a severe shortage of
pickle barrels in Britain from 1942 until the end of the war...

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth
  #3  
Old April 28th 04, 12:27 PM
Keith Willshaw
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Default


"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

Reading what appears to be a solid history of FDR and espionage.
Author makes the flat statement that in 1940 someone in the Norden
plant smuggled out the plans, which went to Germany. From these, the
Germans "developed their own bombsight," presumably based on the
Norden. The author points out the irony that at this point we still
wouldn't give Britain the bombsight (we did later).


The Germans did indeed have a complete set of plans
for the Norden bombsight courtesy of the efforts
of an employee named Hermann Lang, a naturalised
German immigrant who worked for Norden in Manhattan

Any truth to this? What part if any of the Norden sight did the
Germans utilize?


The German Lofte 7 bombsight was developed by people
who had access to the data from Norden and while
not a copy of the Norden design its likely they
learned a lot from it.

As to the US not offering the Nordern to the RAF it was
just as much a factor that the RAF did not consider that
tachometric bombsights such as the Norden, and British
ABS Mk 2 were suitable for night bombing from medium
altitudes. As a result the main BS used bu bomber command
would be the Blackett (MK XIV) which was simpler
and did not require as long a run up as the Norden

Keith


  #4  
Old April 28th 04, 08:32 PM
robert arndt
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The German Lofte 7 bombsight was developed by people
who had access to the data from Norden and while
not a copy of the Norden design its likely they
learned a lot from it.


http://www.luftarchiv.info/bordgerate/optisch.htm

Lofte 7B-D further down the page.

Rob
  #5  
Old April 28th 04, 08:44 PM
robert arndt
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Default

As to the US not offering the Nordern to the RAF it was
just as much a factor that the RAF did not consider that
tachometric bombsights such as the Norden, and British
ABS Mk 2 were suitable for night bombing from medium
altitudes. As a result the main BS used bu bomber command
would be the Blackett (MK XIV) which was simpler
and did not require as long a run up as the Norden

Keith


Uh, the Brits DID use the SABS Mk.IIA from 1943 for precision bombing
(in clear weather, of course)!

Rob
  #6  
Old April 28th 04, 09:55 PM
Keith Willshaw
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"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
As to the US not offering the Nordern to the RAF it was
just as much a factor that the RAF did not consider that
tachometric bombsights such as the Norden, and British
ABS Mk 2 were suitable for night bombing from medium
altitudes. As a result the main BS used bu bomber command
would be the Blackett (MK XIV) which was simpler
and did not require as long a run up as the Norden

Keith


Uh, the Brits DID use the SABS Mk.IIA from 1943 for precision bombing
(in clear weather, of course)!

Rob


The SABS MkII was used in relatively small numbers. At the peak
of its use it was used by only 5 squadrons and in those only 3
aircraft in each were fitted with the SABS. Most were withdrawn
at the end of 1943 and only 617 Squadron was equipped
with the SABS MkIIA IRC

The problem with the SABS was each one was effectively hand made
and the training required to use it effectively was much more intense
than for the MkXIV . ISTR that even the bombardiers of 617 squadron
who were selected from the best available had to have special
coaching to use it effectively. Given the emphasis on area bombing
this was not regarded as justifiable for most units.

Keith


  #7  
Old April 28th 04, 09:56 PM
Keith Willshaw
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Default


"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
The German Lofte 7 bombsight was developed by people
who had access to the data from Norden and while
not a copy of the Norden design its likely they
learned a lot from it.


http://www.luftarchiv.info/bordgerate/optisch.htm

Lofte 7B-D further down the page.

Rob


Thanks , nice pictures.

Keith


  #8  
Old April 28th 04, 10:30 PM
Jim Herring
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Default

Cub Driver wrote:

Reading what appears to be a solid history of FDR and espionage.
Author makes the flat statement that in 1940 someone in the Norden
plant smuggled out the plans, which went to Germany. From these, the
Germans "developed their own bombsight," presumably based on the
Norden. The author points out the irony that at this point we still
wouldn't give Britain the bombsight (we did later).

Any truth to this? What part if any of the Norden sight did the
Germans utilize?


The story has been on the history channel. A worker at the Norden plant
stole blueprints and gave them to the Germans. As I recall from the
program, the Germans were able to reproduce the bombsight, but didn't
use it in combat.

--
Jim

carry on


  #9  
Old April 28th 04, 10:44 PM
Jukka O. Kauppinen
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Default


Any truth to this? What part if any of the Norden sight did the
Germans utilize?


As already mentioned, they did indeed have Norden plans.

But Germany already had perfectly good bombsights capable of as good
bomb delivery as a Norden. Nothing so spectacular in that one.

For example the Stuvi sights used in Ju-87s and Ju-88s were highly
advanced, computerized sights for their day. They show that building a
advanced and accurate sight was not something that just the British or
Americans were capable of.

jok
  #10  
Old April 28th 04, 11:52 PM
Jim Doyle
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Default


"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
The German Lofte 7 bombsight was developed by people
who had access to the data from Norden and while
not a copy of the Norden design its likely they
learned a lot from it.


http://www.luftarchiv.info/bordgerate/optisch.htm

Lofte 7B-D further down the page.

Rob


Not being able to read German - could someone please explain the principal
workings of the gunsight in the first diagram? (The two concentric circles
and cross as rear sight, with vane-looking gizmo as foresight - attached to
the MG15).

I'd always wondered about them but never really bothered to find out.

Jim Doyle


 




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