Where is approach good about multiple approaches and clearances in the air?

"Marco Leon" mleon(at)optonline.net wrote:

I guess it's a function of how busy they are. I practice approaches in the
Long Island area of NY and I'm usually trying to squeeze my calls
inbetween the flights into JFK or ISP. Almost always accommodating given
their traffic level but I've also never been thanked. As a matter of fact,
the pilots in our area almost always thank the controllers!

That's normally the way it is on our side of Manhatten too.

Into what airport(s) to do practice your approaches? A trip out there would
be fun; it's where I grew up (well...where I spent most of my time before I
could vote, anyway {8^).

Can one speak to approach from the ground at Montauk, or do I need to get my
clearance through a phone call to FSS? I've been told that this is an
airport w/in walking distance to a beach, so I've been meaning to get
there.

- Andrew

Marco Leon wrote:

Hey Newps, care to share if and/or how the FAA tracks the number of
approaches you work? I'm curious.

We keep track of the flight strips. IFR aircraft get flight strips
printed out by the computer. VFR planes shooting practice approaches
get the same type of strip but it is handwritten. It is counted as an
IFR operation for traffic count purposes. Each approach that does not
terminate in a full stop is a two count, a full stop is a one count. We
put up and down arrows in the box where the arrival time normally goes
to signify to the guy who counts the traffic to count that one as two.
If an IFR arrival does not land for any reason then the same thing
happens, an up and down arrow gets put on the strip and we request
another one from the computer or hand write it. VFR aircraft are
similar except we use half strips, the right half of the strip is cut
off. All of this data gets entered into a computer at about 10 pm each
night and gets automatically transmitted to DC each morning about 2 am.
In a couple weeks we are switching over to a new computer system where
the muckety mucks will be able to look at any facility and see who is at
work, who is on what position, how much traffic there is, etc. All in
real time.

It's not surprising that you don't get clearances "on the go" from TTN
because approaches there are controlled by Philly. In my experience,
they're usually too busy to give such clearances. Someone suggested
RDG. Good suggestion because they're very accommodating. There is a
female controller there who is top notch: Clear, concise, aways on top
of everything going on, and not grumpy if you make a few minor
mistakes. Makes one wonder why she hasn't been bumped up to a higher
profile job. The cafe there is decent so you might want to land rather
than get your clearance in the air. Another suggestion is ACY. They
are typically really good and I've gotten clearances on the go from
them. Farther away is LNS (controlled by Harrisburg App), and if you
don't even want to fuss with clearances in VFR conditions you can fly
ILS approaches at MSV. Another person suggested AVP. Another great ATC
crew. Bottom line: don't expect a lot of flexibility from busy Bravo
controllers, except in the occasional quiet times between airline
arrival/departure gluts.

Andrew Gideon wrote in message gonline.com...
I'm no freight dog or corporate pilot with dozens of approaches to minimums
each day. For me, as with many GA pilots I expect, maintaining *real*
currency involves explicit practice.

That's fine; I enjoy it. But I'd like to try some new places.

The issue is that I'd like to try some new places that are friendly about
multiple approaches. For example, at both ABE and STW I've almost never
had a problem terminating an approach in a T&G or low approach and heading
out immediately for another (or picking up a clearance for the next leg).
I've tried TTN, but they always insist upon my landing and picking up my
next clearance on the ground.

It took several tries at TTN before I got the message, but in it eventually
sankgrin.

So what airports are more like ABE and STW, where approach is willing to
provide a clearance in the air and permit multiple approaches? Of course,
I'm interested in the area around my "home airport" (CDW in Northern NJ),
but I expect that others are interested in the same thing elsewhere.

Thanks...
- Andrew

Good points, there is an airline "rush hour" 7-10 am and 4-8 pm or so.
Don't expect much in the way of VFR services from busy commercial
airports during these times.

(airbourne56) wrote in message . com...
It's not surprising that you don't get clearances "on the go" from TTN
because approaches there are controlled by Philly. In my experience,
they're usually too busy to give such clearances. Someone suggested
RDG. Good suggestion because they're very accommodating. There is a
female controller there who is top notch: Clear, concise, aways on top
of everything going on, and not grumpy if you make a few minor
mistakes. Makes one wonder why she hasn't been bumped up to a higher
profile job. The cafe there is decent so you might want to land rather
than get your clearance in the air. Another suggestion is ACY. They
are typically really good and I've gotten clearances on the go from
them. Farther away is LNS (controlled by Harrisburg App), and if you
don't even want to fuss with clearances in VFR conditions you can fly
ILS approaches at MSV. Another person suggested AVP. Another great ATC
crew. Bottom line: don't expect a lot of flexibility from busy Bravo
controllers, except in the occasional quiet times between airline
arrival/departure gluts.

Andrew Gideon wrote in message gonline.com...
I'm no freight dog or corporate pilot with dozens of approaches to minimums
each day. For me, as with many GA pilots I expect, maintaining *real*
currency involves explicit practice.

That's fine; I enjoy it. But I'd like to try some new places.

The issue is that I'd like to try some new places that are friendly about
multiple approaches. For example, at both ABE and STW I've almost never
had a problem terminating an approach in a T&G or low approach and heading
out immediately for another (or picking up a clearance for the next leg).
I've tried TTN, but they always insist upon my landing and picking up my
next clearance on the ground.

It took several tries at TTN before I got the message, but in it eventually
sankgrin.

So what airports are more like ABE and STW, where approach is willing to
provide a clearance in the air and permit multiple approaches? Of course,
I'm interested in the area around my "home airport" (CDW in Northern NJ),
but I expect that others are interested in the same thing elsewhere.

Thanks...
- Andrew

Andrew Gideon wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

It sounds like you are doing your practicing under IFR. That's probably a
good idea from the POV of working within the system and practicing
procedures with a real controller. I don't feel the need to do that.


Psst...wanna know a secret? I do it because I'm lazy. It's more work if I
have to deal with acquiring Flight Following, at least in my neighborhood.

Hmmm. If I recall your original post you were complaining about having to do
full stop landings and getting a new clearance for each approach. That's easier
than getting flight following? Anyway, flight following is optional, of course.

There's also a fair chance that I'll not be able to speak to anyone while
approaching my "home" airport, which means one less approach.

I don't understand this statement. Your home airport has an approach control? If
you can't speak to them, how are you going to get home at all? If your home
airport has no approach control, how does not being able to speak prevent you
from doing an approach? Anyway, why are you unable to speak?


But I do also like the practice of being in the system.

[...]


Controllers here (Raleigh, NC) are usually happy to accomodate requests
for VFR practice approaches. Sometimes they get too busy for that, so I
terminate radar advisories and do full procedures (no vectors).


I don't know that I'm so comfortable with this idea. Being on an approach
w/o talking to someone because that someone is too busy? What if the
someone is busy because of others on the approach (or perhaps a conflicting
approach)?

Well, that's life. VFR services are on a workload-permitting basis for
controllers. What you are saying is that you are not comfortable flying VFR, I
guess.

As for others on the approach, well you can monitor the approach control
frequency, and you have a safety pilot looking out the window.

In the Raleigh-Durham area, if the RDU controllers are busy enough to say
"unable VFR practice approaches", it's usually because they are busy with
traffic into and out of RDU. The satellite fields are not equally busy.

When you're IFR in VMC, you still have a responsibility to see and avoid, that
doesn't change just because you're on an instrument flight plan. You still can
have others (VFR) on the approach or on a conflicting approach.



I usually
do my approaches at nearby non-towered fields that are under the Raleigh
TRACON jurisdiction, followed by an approach to a full stop at RDU, where
I'm based.


I dislike practicing approaches to nontowered fields VFR. It's not very
good practice, I've found, because I need to behave in a "non-IFR" way
towards the end of the approach to avoid other traffic.

Must be a difference in the traffic density where you live versus piedmont NC.
That happens occasionally, but it beats having to land and get a new clearance
as you described in your original posting.


I'll often have to skip the final stepdown entirely, in fact, to stay
sufficiently high that I can join the pattern.

Practicing in controlled airspace lets me behave more realistically, in my
experience.

I'm practicing in controlled airspace, too.


I'm curious what others think on this, though.

Me too.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
Dave

Andrew,
I'm based at Republic (FRG) and I usually practice at Brookhaven (HWV),
Islip (ISP), Bridgeport (BDR), and New Haven (HVN). Nice cross section of
approach types and sometimes I go to Bradley, CT (BDL) for the LDA. Montauk
is a bit of a trip (for practice approaches anyway) and I actually have
never been there. I don't know if you can contact approach on the ground but
you can always get a void time from FSS. I hear that you CAN walk to the
beach and that there's a $16 landing fee as well. I should try to get out
there one day.

Marco
"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
"Marco Leon" mleon(at)optonline.net wrote:

I guess it's a function of how busy they are. I practice approaches in
the
Long Island area of NY and I'm usually trying to squeeze my calls
inbetween the flights into JFK or ISP. Almost always accommodating given
their traffic level but I've also never been thanked. As a matter of
fact,
the pilots in our area almost always thank the controllers!

That's normally the way it is on our side of Manhatten too.

Into what airport(s) to do practice your approaches? A trip out there
would
be fun; it's where I grew up (well...where I spent most of my time before
I
could vote, anyway {8^).

Can one speak to approach from the ground at Montauk, or do I need to get
my
clearance through a phone call to FSS? I've been told that this is an
airport w/in walking distance to a beach, so I've been meaning to get
there.

- Andrew




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So if I read ya right, every VFR practice approach actually counts as two
operations and looks like two IFR flights coming in for a full stop?
Therefore the muckity mucks will see an airport busy with practice
approaches as having high-volume IFR operations and plan accordingly.
Interesting. No wonder those out-of-the-way airports thank the pilot for
practicing there!

Thanks,

Marco


"Newps" wrote in message
news:AKAWb.10043$jk2.31349@attbi_s53...
We keep track of the flight strips. IFR aircraft get flight strips
printed out by the computer. VFR planes shooting practice approaches
get the same type of strip but it is handwritten. It is counted as an
IFR operation for traffic count purposes. Each approach that does not
terminate in a full stop is a two count, a full stop is a one count. We
put up and down arrows in the box where the arrival time normally goes
to signify to the guy who counts the traffic to count that one as two.
If an IFR arrival does not land for any reason then the same thing
happens, an up and down arrow gets put on the strip and we request
another one from the computer or hand write it. VFR aircraft are
similar except we use half strips, the right half of the strip is cut
off. All of this data gets entered into a computer at about 10 pm each
night and gets automatically transmitted to DC each morning about 2 am.
In a couple weeks we are switching over to a new computer system where
the muckety mucks will be able to look at any facility and see who is at
work, who is on what position, how much traffic there is, etc. All in
real time.




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Marco Leon wrote:
So if I read ya right, every VFR practice approach actually counts as two
operations and looks like two IFR flights coming in for a full stop?

Only if you don't land. That's because you get radar service on the
missed. If an airliner comes in and goes missed or has to go around for
any reason and then lands on his next attempt he is a three count. All
traffic is counted the same.


Therefore the muckity mucks will see an airport busy with practice
approaches as having high-volume IFR operations and plan accordingly.

There are differences between airline airports and the approach controls
at class C and D airports. You'll never get an opposite direction
approach at DFW unless it's the middle of the night. We do it all the
time here with all traffic. Many times the jets will be given a takeoff
clearance with a requirement to start a turn prior to the end of the
runway because there is a spamcan practicing an opposite direction
approach or another jet on final nose to nose. If you've got props
you'll be turning no later than midfield. That's our normal. We make
our tower guys work here, you don't just stand there and say cleared to
land. And when it gets busy with departures you don't call down to
approach and tell them to "give me 5 miles between arrivals."


Interesting. No wonder those out-of-the-way airports thank the pilot for
practicing there!

Yes, the pay raises in the last 5 or so years has been nice.

Newps ) wrote:

Yes, the pay raises in the last 5 or so years has been nice.

Sorry, in its form above I cannot tell if you are serious or sarcastic.
Have you received steady raises or has there been a moratorium, like most
of the the private sector?

--
Peter R.


























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We have gotten significant raises every year. Last month the raise was
a little over 4%. I'll gross over $100K in a couple years.

Peter R. wrote:
Newps ) wrote:


Yes, the pay raises in the last 5 or so years has been nice.


Sorry, in its form above I cannot tell if you are serious or sarcastic.
Have you received steady raises or has there been a moratorium, like most
of the the private sector?