Flarm in the US

The flaw to the rental idea is that it demotivates purchase of the
units and therefor diminishes the oppourtunity for improved safety on
non-contest flights. It has been reported here that in some
countries Flarm has reached near universal adoption and that safety
has been greatly enhanced as a result. I would not want to see us
adopt a scheme that makes achieving that same result unlikely or
significantly defered.

Another observation from across the pond, if I may.

I have the most basic Flarm, which is a very small compact unit, but
requires an external battery source. I run it from a battery I carry
on with me, stuffed behind the glider seat, and the Flarm sits on top
of the instrument panel coaming with “hook and loop” tape. I have mine
retrofitted with the IGC Logger capability. You can buy new ones with
this capability already installed, now.

The Power Flarm, as I understand it, is a much bulkier item. I don't
know how that would work out for people to rent it and use temporarily
during competitions. You would have to sort out the power
requirements. Not everybody can stuff an extra battery into the glider
in the way that I can in mine.

If you want to see a picture of my glider with its Flarm, PCAS, and
other bolt on goodies on the instrument panel, see :
http://picasaweb.google.com/cnich150...78413677251106
..

[I hope this works – I have not tried it before!]

And one other observation. "The best is the enemy of the good". I
decided to get something that would help with avoiding some collisions
now, rather than wait for the ultimate solution where everyone has
interoperability with everybody else all in one compact box that is
affordable, can be fitted under the relevant regulations, gives a
graphic display, has no disadvantages, and and and. I might not live
that long. I certainly don't think I will be gliding that long.

Chris N

On 8/10/2010 11:06 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
The flaw to the rental idea is that it demotivates purchase of the
units and therefor diminishes the oppourtunity for improved safety on
non-contest flights. It has been reported here that in some
countries Flarm has reached near universal adoption and that safety
has been greatly enhanced as a result. I would not want to see us
adopt a scheme that makes achieving that same result unlikely or
significantly defered.
You are never going to get the average Cessna pilot to buy a FLARM unit
in the US, when he knows he is going to eventually have to buy an ADS-B
transmitter. FLARM is useless unless you have a significant number of
other aircraft equipped. Renting units in contests is a quick and
viable way to solve this immediate problem. If you want to solve the
problem for the recreational flyer, ADS-B is the solution, particularly
when you consider that most weekend flying is probably happening near
major metropolitan areas which will have ground station coverage, and
where much of the power GA traffic is already transponder equipped.

--
Mike Schumann

problem for the recreational flyer, ADS-B is the solution, particularly
when you consider that most weekend flying is probably happening near
major metropolitan areas which will have ground station coverage, and
where much of the power GA traffic is already transponder equipped.

Not true at all. Where we fly our XC routes is back in the mountains.
As far as I know there isn't much GA traffic or station coverage back
there. But, there can be several gliders and I would like to have
something besides my visual scan to alert me to their presence. It
seems Flarm in "our" cockpits would do that?

We are also not "weekend only" flyers, we fly several days out of the
week during the summer and for that matter during the flying season.

Now, on the other hand.............I would imagine due to work, family
and financial obligations the flights made by contest pilots happen 2
or maybe 3 times a year, or at least as many contests their other
obligations allow them to fly.

So, perhaps the contest pilot who "only" gets to fly a few contest
pilots a year perhaps isn't so up on his skills as a pilot who flies
year round?

Not to get in to a ****ing contest here, but anything that excludes
one group of pilots over another is not a viable solution, in my
opinion.

Flarm should be made available to ALL glider pilots. Didn't I just
read "the best is the enemy of the good"?

Brad

On Aug 10, 10:26*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 8/10/2010 11:06 AM, Steve Koerner wrote: The flaw to the rental idea is that it demotivates purchase of the
units and therefor diminishes the oppourtunity for improved safety on
non-contest flights. * It has been reported here that in some
countries Flarm has reached near universal adoption and that safety
has been greatly enhanced as a result. *I would not want to see us
adopt a scheme that makes achieving that same result unlikely or
significantly defered.

You are never going to get the average Cessna pilot to buy a FLARM unit
in the US, when he knows he is going to eventually have to buy an ADS-B
transmitter. *FLARM is useless unless you have a significant number of
other aircraft equipped. *Renting units in contests is a quick and
viable way to solve this immediate problem. *If you want to solve the
problem for the recreational flyer, ADS-B is the solution, particularly
when you consider that most weekend flying is probably happening near
major metropolitan areas which will have ground station coverage, and
where much of the power GA traffic is already transponder equipped.

--
Mike Schumann

Unless, I'm misreading the specifications, there's no need for Cessna
drivers to buy PowerFLARM units. PowerFLARM can detect Mode C and ADS-
B if the glider and Cessna are in range of an interrogating radar in
the same manner as current "transponder detectors".

ADS-B, unless the camel designing committees in the FAA screw it up,
will be a nice solution but it's a LONG way off. Further off than the
replacement cycle life of most glider avionics. Buy PowerFLARM now
and by the time ADS-B is truly useful, the PF unit will need
replacement anyway.

Finally, It's entirely possible by the time ADS-B is here, the
PowerFLARM folks will have full ADS-B functionality built into their
units.

On Aug 10, 12:42*am, Bruce Hoult wrote:

If you choose to have FLARM and 25% of other gliders have FLARM then
you will be alerted to 25% of possible collisions, not 1/16.

If you choose not to have FLARM then you will be alerted to 0% of
possible collisions.

I'm not going to argue with either person's math but I think different
assumptions are being made. In one case the total number of avoided
collisions is being considered. In the other case the avoided
collisions are only those involving one of the FLARM equipped gliders.

Andy

On 8/10/2010 11:35 AM, Brad wrote:

problem for the recreational flyer, ADS-B is the solution, particularly
when you consider that most weekend flying is probably happening near
major metropolitan areas which will have ground station coverage, and
where much of the power GA traffic is already transponder equipped.

Not true at all. Where we fly our XC routes is back in the mountains.
As far as I know there isn't much GA traffic or station coverage back
there. But, there can be several gliders and I would like to have
something besides my visual scan to alert me to their presence. It
seems Flarm in "our" cockpits would do that?

We are also not "weekend only" flyers, we fly several days out of the
week during the summer and for that matter during the flying season.

Now, on the other hand.............I would imagine due to work, family
and financial obligations the flights made by contest pilots happen 2
or maybe 3 times a year, or at least as many contests their other
obligations allow them to fly.

So, perhaps the contest pilot who "only" gets to fly a few contest
pilots a year perhaps isn't so up on his skills as a pilot who flies
year round?

Not to get in to a ****ing contest here, but anything that excludes
one group of pilots over another is not a viable solution, in my
opinion.

Flarm should be made available to ALL glider pilots. Didn't I just
read "the best is the enemy of the good"?

Brad

FLARM does you no good, if the aircraft that you are about to hit
doesn't have FLARM installed. No one is suggesting that you not be able
to buy FLARM. It's just not going to do you any good if the other
aircraft flying in your area are also not FLARM equipped.

If you are flying in a remote area, with a couple of other glider pilots
and you all buy FLARM, you have protection from each other, but not the
stray GA pilot who may wander thru the area. That may be good enough
for you and if you have a small enough group, you may be able to
convince everyone to buy a unit.

If you are flying near a major metro area, there is absolutely no way
you are going to get everyone in the area to invest in FLARM. In that
environment, you will also probably be flying within range of an ADS-B
ground station, so investing in ADS-B is definitely the way to go. Not
only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft, but you also will see
all other Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that show up on ATC radar.

--
Mike Schumann

On 8/10/2010 11:47 AM, bildan wrote:
On Aug 10, 10:26 am, Mike
wrote:
On 8/10/2010 11:06 AM, Steve Koerner wrote: The flaw to the rental idea is that it demotivates purchase of the
units and therefor diminishes the oppourtunity for improved safety on
non-contest flights. It has been reported here that in some
countries Flarm has reached near universal adoption and that safety
has been greatly enhanced as a result. I would not want to see us
adopt a scheme that makes achieving that same result unlikely or
significantly defered.

You are never going to get the average Cessna pilot to buy a FLARM unit
in the US, when he knows he is going to eventually have to buy an ADS-B
transmitter. FLARM is useless unless you have a significant number of
other aircraft equipped. Renting units in contests is a quick and
viable way to solve this immediate problem. If you want to solve the
problem for the recreational flyer, ADS-B is the solution, particularly
when you consider that most weekend flying is probably happening near
major metropolitan areas which will have ground station coverage, and
where much of the power GA traffic is already transponder equipped.

--
Mike Schumann

Unless, I'm misreading the specifications, there's no need for Cessna
drivers to buy PowerFLARM units. PowerFLARM can detect Mode C and ADS-
B if the glider and Cessna are in range of an interrogating radar in
the same manner as current "transponder detectors".

ADS-B, unless the camel designing committees in the FAA screw it up,
will be a nice solution but it's a LONG way off. Further off than the
replacement cycle life of most glider avionics. Buy PowerFLARM now
and by the time ADS-B is truly useful, the PF unit will need
replacement anyway.

Finally, It's entirely possible by the time ADS-B is here, the
PowerFLARM folks will have full ADS-B functionality built into their
units.

If you are flying in a remote area, outside of radar coverage, there is
a very good chance that a transponder equipped aircraft will not be
interrogated on a regular basis, and, as a result, will NOT show up on
PowerFlarm or other PCAS type units.

--
Mike Schumann

A few points:

1) I still think the rental idea has merit. If people are unconvinced
about buying one, letting them use it for 1 week in a crowded
environment (i.e. a contest or busy flying-site) for only $100 - $150
would be a good way to introduce them to the unit and convince them
that its worthy of purchasing. The hope is that they would go home
after the contest is over and buy one. A "try before you buy" type
program, if you will. If I had the capital to purchase 30 of these, I
would start this business tomorrow (sadly I only have the $$ to buy
about 10 - 15, without getting external investors involved).

2) The powerFLARM unit uses AA batteries, no need for external
wiring.

3) The powerFLARM only has 1 rotary knob for control, and a pretty
self-explanatory display system. Not sure how much fiddling would be
required by a renter to get comfortable with it. Mounting might be a
hassle, but velco on the glareshield is the easy solution (like people
do with Zaon systems now). If rented at a contest, the idea would be
to get used to it on the Practice Day.

4) The powerFLARM is already ADS-B compliant. Yes, it does not have
a transmitter; but I don't think you're going to see that. ADS-B
transmit requirements are far more stringent than FLARM. It would be
a bigger power-drain and more antennas would be needed. I think
there's a good argument for separating your ADS-B "In" (i.e. collision
alert & display systems) from your ADS-B "Out" (i.e. transponder-like
functions) equipment, due to the big differences in antennas and power
requirements that each component needs.

5) Brad, its not about STOPPING non-contest pilots from adopting the
FLARM. But contest pilots tend to be early-adopters of new
technology, and tend to be the people who are more willing to spend $$
to upgrade their glider. The idea is to use this crowd to establish a
"beachhead" in the USA. Get a certain minimum % of the pilots using
FLARM and then it'll spread from there. Pilots already spend several
hundred $$ for contest entries and hotels/meals while at a contest -
so many of them wouldn't balk too much about an additional $100 for
the FLARM rental. Asking casual pilots to fork out an additional $50
- $100 for a weekend of flying with one is a much different issue!
Contests are just the starting point, to try to springboard the system
into widespread acceptance.

6) If the powerFLARM can replace a Volkslogger or ewMicroRecorder or
similar device, that would make it even more attractive, for sure!
Its got the GPS capability, so the security features and data output
(to SD card or something similar) is the only missing piece.

--Noel
(who also still likes the idea of a headless unit for purchase, to aid
in mounting and integration with other displays/flight-computers).

On Aug 10, 10:51*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:

If you are flying in a remote area, outside of radar coverage, there is
a very good chance that a transponder equipped aircraft will not be
interrogated on a regular basis, and, as a result, will NOT show up on
PowerFlarm or other PCAS type units.

Mike - that's why powerFLARM includes FLARM and ADS-B detection, in
addition to Mode C/S Transponder interrogation replies. So powerFLARM
gives you the ability to detect any aircraft equipped with any of
these systems.

And note that until the entire GA fleet is equipped with ADS-B (in
2020 or beyond), the ONLY system that is actively transmitting all the
time is the FLARM protocol! Its the best guarantee among aircraft in
close proximity, no matter where they're flying or what radar coverage
they do/don't have.

ADS-B holds the same "always on" promise of FLARM, but the difference
is that FLARM is a developed product whereas ADS-B is still 5 - 15
years away.

--Noel