When to descend II

He probably meant NW. You can't identify ROYCE unless you are on the
localizer.

Non GPS airplane?

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 06:58:38 -0700, Bee wrote:

He probably meant NW.

Perhaps, but I'd rather respond to the question asked than to the one I
made up. Also, if here were NW of ROYCE and on the localizer, he'd
probably omit the part of his question about "heading for the numbers"
since he'd already be heading in that direction.

You can't identify ROYCE unless you are on the localizer.

You can certainly navigate TO ROYCE without being established on the
localizer, however.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Newps wrote:




He probably meant NW. You can't identify ROYCE unless you are on the
localizer.


Non GPS airplane?

GPS isn't the issue. In fact there is also an RNAV (GPS) IAP to 12R
with the same FAF.

But, ATC couldn't issue the crossing restiction at ROYCE unless the
aircraft were on the approach at that time. A direct-to-the-FAF is not
allowed.

Ron Rosenfeld wrote in
:

You can certainly navigate TO ROYCE without being established on
the localizer, however.

Vectored, maybe but not navigating.

--

"Bee" wrote:


I don't believe he can be 4 mi SW of ROYCE and also on the localizer for
Rwy 12. Or am I missing something?


He probably meant NW. You can't identify ROYCE unless you are on the
localizer.

No, I meant SW. I was on a vector to join, and then called the field in
sight.

I'm doing this from memory of 6 mos. ago. I might be missing a detail, but
the approach and tower clearances are essentially correct.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

Bee wrote:




GPS isn't the issue. In fact there is also an RNAV (GPS) IAP to 12R
with the same FAF.

But, ATC couldn't issue the crossing restiction at ROYCE unless the
aircraft were on the approach at that time. A direct-to-the-FAF is not
allowed.

I most certainly can issue that restriction without the aircraft being
on the approach. It's merely a fix, if I want an aircrasft to cross
over a fix at or above a certain altitude I'll do it.

Newps wrote:


Bee wrote:




GPS isn't the issue. In fact there is also an RNAV (GPS) IAP to 12R
with the same FAF.

But, ATC couldn't issue the crossing restiction at ROYCE unless the
aircraft were on the approach at that time. A direct-to-the-FAF is
not allowed.


I most certainly can issue that restriction without the aircraft being
on the approach. It's merely a fix, if I want an aircrasft to cross
over a fix at or above a certain altitude I'll do it.

But, in essence you are clearing me direct-to-the-FAF. This is not an
en route fix or even an IAF or earlier. Only in limited circumstances
are you allowed to clear me direct to an RNAV IF. I certainly don't see
how you can make me cross a FAF unless you have correctly placed me on
the IAP.

Dan Luke wrote:

"Bee" wrote:


I don't believe he can be 4 mi SW of ROYCE and also on the localizer for
Rwy 12. Or am I missing something?


He probably meant NW. You can't identify ROYCE unless you are on the
localizer.


No, I meant SW. I was on a vector to join, and then called the field in
sight.

I'm doing this from memory of 6 mos. ago. I might be missing a detail, but
the approach and tower clearances are essentially correct.


Yes, memory is a fleeting thing. ;-)

If you were on vectors to the ILS, the final heading for intercept
couldn't be greater than 330 coming from that direction.

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:27:37 -0700, Bee wrote:

If you were on vectors to the ILS,

But he wrote that he had been cleared for the visual.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Bee wrote:



But, in essence you are clearing me direct-to-the-FAF.

Irrelevant. A fix is a fix. You're doing the visual approach. We in
the TRACON have determined that sending aircraft over a certain fix
makes separation easier. One problem with using an RNAV approach fix is
a lot of people won't be familair with it before hand. We normally use
a fix here on our ILS that substitutes for the OM and everybody is
familiar with it.



This is not an
en route fix or even an IAF or earlier. Only in limited circumstances
are you allowed to clear me direct to an RNAV IF. I certainly don't see
how you can make me cross a FAF unless you have correctly placed me on
the IAP.

You're doing to the visual approach, it's irrelevant what fix I send you
too. It could be a charted one or one I simply made up out of thin air.